Jan 'Yarn' Muths 0:00 And welcome back to the production talk podcast. I'm so glad you're on board today. Thank you so much for joining in again. Over the last few episodes, we focus on different parts of the music production cycle. And last week we spoke to Shane Murphy who shared heaps of amazing tips and tricks for self producing music, and most importantly, for self promoting musicians. We learned that publishing your music alone is just not enough. The other day, I came across an interesting discussion in a business podcast. And I'd like to paraphrase Chris Graham and Brian hood here. They're discussed in Old School Business mentality that they call when you build it, they will come, which means that all you have to do is just to create a business and the customers will flock in automatically. Well, while this may have worked in times of rapid economic boom in the past, this concept simply doesn't work in today's reality anymore. What we can take from that is that writing producing and publishing music alone just won't cut it. One cannot publish a song and then lean back and passively wait to be discovered. That would be the concept of you release it and they will come at it simply doesn't work in the 2020s. Instead, you have to take matters into your own hands and direct attention to your published music. This is what we call music marketing and promotion. And it's equally if not more important than songwriting, and music production. Today we are going to dive deeper into the field of music marketing and promotion by speaking to marketing professional Daniel Musgrave. Dan has good years of professional marketing experience. And he specializes in digital marketing. So I really hope that today's episode has got heaps of goodies in it for you. Sit tight, get a pen and paper ready if you can, and write on your ideas while you listen. But that's enough for now. Let's finally get to the good stuff. Here is my interview with Danielle Musgrave. In last week's podcasts, we had Shane Murphy with us who is very successful musician and shared some interesting aspects of digital marketing from a musician's perspective. So today I'd like to take it to the next level and actually speak to somebody who's working in digital marketing and promotion professionally. So with us today is Daniel Musgrave. Welcome on board and thank you for joining me today. Thanks, john. It's really good to be here. Thanks for joining say, Would you mind to just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, please? Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm a marketing professional, Daniel Musgrave 2:43 working at the moment, at SAE as a content producer. But I've also worked in events and been an event marketer for years, I work with some pretty, pretty solid brands across the area, particularly entertainment industry. brands like spending the grass blues, fast, stone wood, Smirnoff, so I've had a lot to do with them. I'm also a freelance digital marketer, and a digital optimizer. But also my proudest thing is I'm a buyer and local. I'm a surfer. I really love getting outside. I love camping. I love playing soccer. We played soccer since I was about six years old. So yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, I try and do a bit of marketing in my spare time. Okay. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 3:31 And I was told that you're an artist yourself. Daniel Musgrave 3:34 Yeah, yeah. So I've been DJing for over 10 years now. Just under my alias, Dan Musgrave. I've had a few different projects over the years. But I've also run a management label as well, that we did club night. So that's called club riders, so those predominantly in the barn area. But yeah, I played it. A lot of those gigs have also played played a few festivals like to splendor as well. Nice. So yeah, I've definitely dabbled in music production and being an artist myself. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 4:08 Fantastic. So the cross section of marketing and music is really what we want to talk about today. So I'm glad I found you, you are definitely a specialist for that. Then imagine, you know, if you were to run into a young artist, somebody who's just literally, you know, getting into it and starting from from the very beginning, or what advice would you would you give young artists, where would they start, you know, what, what systems? What structure should they build up first? Daniel Musgrave 4:37 Hmm, that's a really good question. And it can be a little bit daunting for someone who's never done this before. I think as a young artist, they have the advantage of being already involved in the digital landscape. So you know, they already know about things like Instagram and Facebook, but they may not know how powerful how useful they can be. From a promotional perspective, so I think that the main ones that the ones that I just mentioned are Instagram, and Facebook would sort of be the ways to start Instagram. It's super important for the basis of content marketing, which, which we can get to a little bit later. But also, the thing with Instagram is it sort of can be the anchor point to push people off to different platforms. The thing is with Instagram, they don't like you to leave their, their platform. And that's why you may have noticed, but it's super hard to post a link or to get anyone to deviate from the actual platform of Instagram, because they want to keep you there. The only one that is easy to get to and to navigate to is Facebook. And the reason for that, for those you who don't know, Facebook owns Instagram, so that so they sort of communicate pretty fluently with each other. And they are really the big behemoths of the social media world. So I would say, you know, those to a great start. And they sort of seem obvious, but a lot of people, you know, may not even start there that they just don't know what to do so. So Instagram for content marketing, there's also a tool actually, before I move on that if you want to actually push people to different platforms on there's a thing called link tree, you may or may not have seen that yarn. Have you seen link tree before? Yes, I've come across that. Yeah, so it's basically a tool that allows you to share multiple links on social media. But it really rose to prominence on Instagram. Um, so just go check it out, that's a really good way to, to add some links into the bio of Instagram account. But then obviously, Facebook is going to be something that you're going to really be able to share your your events, your different pages, or new music, and also have a list of contacts that people may be able to reach out, like management, for example. But the big thing about Facebook is the Facebook business suite. And this includes things like Facebook Ads Manager, sort of all the paid marketing things, Facebook, pixel face, Facebook Creator Studio, basically all the tools that you need to effectively post and manage and monetize and attract performance across all your pages. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 7:24 So you're saying that, you know, young artists should definitely set up their own Facebook page? Absolutely, yeah. Yep, does the business suite automatically come with that or do you actually need to be a registered business with ABN and or Daniel Musgrave 7:37 certainly helps you don't have to have an ABN but you anyone can set up a business suite account, but you do need to set up a page so if you don't, if so, if it's just your personal Facebook page, you won't have the ability to set up a business suite you need to actually go and set up a business page or an artist page and then once that's in place, then you have the ability to use all these other functions within Facebook that are really powerful functions, particularly with paid advertising. Yeah, Jan 'Yarn' Muths 8:10 got it so you In other words, as a young artist, you shouldn't use your private facebook profile to promote your band but you should literally separate your private and your artistic appearance on Facebook Daniel Musgrave 8:24 so so yes, and no less certainly for the the aspect of separating it from a business perspectives for sure. But there is you sort of step into the world of personalized brand, which we can discuss in a little bit as well which is a bit of an amalgamation of yourself and the business. So it sounds a little bit confusing but when it comes to branding in the personal life does become important when it comes to content that's also the case but when it comes to the the numbers i think it's it's certainly important to separate that your artists page as a business as opposed to a personal page. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 9:04 Perfect that makes make sense Thank You got it. Yeah And what about are there equivalents on Instagram like you know, personal accounts and then the equivalent of a Facebook page on Instagram How would you set that up? Daniel Musgrave 9:15 Absolutely. Yeah, so um, Instagram also has a function within it. If you just go into the Edit Profile tab on on just on your your account there, you'll see you'll have the ability to set it up as a business page. It literally takes you know, a minute to set up and then once it's set up as a business page will give you the ability to to set up paid ads and it will also link to your Facebook business page as well. They're essentially you know, that Facebook and Instagram because they're owned by one another, that content flows throughout them. So you really won't have them talking to each other and they can be set up as business accounts in a similar way. And Facebook business suite will actually manage your Instagram account from Facebook. So you have the ability to To post stuff to reshare stuff to track data through your Facebook page, but it's sort of directed at your Instagram data. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 10:08 Got it? So effectively you post on one platform, and it can also show on the other one. If you set it up like that. Daniel Musgrave 10:15 That's exactly right. Yeah. And that, you know, and at the moment, we're just talking about the Facebook side of things. But there's also a lot of other sort of key platforms that are important as your, your digital infrastructure starting out, and I've talked about your Instagram and Facebook, the content side of it, sort of the marketing side of it, but the most important ones really are the ones where you can actually share your music, because that's what you're doing as a musician so so setting up a YouTube official artist channel, sign up for Apple Music for artists, amazon music fires, Spotify music for artists, you know, these ones, you want to have your finger in each of these pies, 100% and, but also things like, you know, Triple J on Earth, for young and upcoming artists should be j on earth is a fantastic platform to utilize. One because it's free. And to because you have the eyes and ears of very prominent people in the industry, listening to your music, and then potentially reviewing it and sharing it with other people within Jan 'Yarn' Muths 11:22 today's typical Australian phenomenon, which you might have just explained for international listeners, what we're talking about here. Daniel Musgrave 11:30 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so yeah, Triple J is, is a youth music radio station, it's broadcasted nationally across Australia, and it's run by the, the ABC, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, if I've got that correct. So Triple J is really really popular for the youth demographic, but also a little bit older as well. And it's it's brought to prominence, some mazing International bands that have really grown not only in the Australian landscape, but yet across the world. And particularly for they've they're really sort of promote and celebrate New Australian artists. So if you're someone that is upcoming, and you are unsigned to a record label, there's another radio station and website they have called True j on earth. And essentially, it does what the title suggests where they are on earth artists that no one really knows about. And so basically true j on Earth, they have a team of people that will go in and listen to every single upload that someone has put on to that platform, which is absolutely amazing. And so if you have a track that you know, is is pretty good. You know, it's it's got some real backing for it, and you're confident that they can go around, you can put it on Triple J on earth and, and they'll actually listen to it and review it. And it has the potential to either get played on Triple J on earth radio station, or even played on Triple J, where you're having the whole of Australia, listening and people overseas as well. So sometimes it can be difficult to really break through. thing it with platforms like Spotify, and YouTube and Apple, because there's just so many users, it's such a saturated environment. But triple janner sort of allows those unknown artists to really come to the forefront. And that's why along with all these other platforms, I think it's a very important thing to utilize if your upcoming, or Young Australian artists or any Australian arts for that matter. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 13:26 Excellent. Excellent. So we've got Facebook and Instagram as one of the starting points, then you mentioned the YouTube channel and Triple J on Earth, or, you know, I'm sure there are equivalents in other nations as well. So maybe just ask your friends, if you listen from elsewhere? Or maybe do a Google search. Now what radio stations support local acts in your country? At what stage, would you recommend that an artist should set up their own website is is that something that we can leave for later? Or should this happen early on, in the you know, marketing career? Daniel Musgrave 13:59 Yeah, I think that's would certainly be the next step. And if not the next step in conjunction with all of these things. So the website's really a central space for all of this information to sit. So it's a it's a place where you can obviously put content and music but also things like blogs, and things like APKs or electronic press kits. So I think that's something that's super important. If you don't mind me talking about an APK for please for a second young. Yeah, so basically, you know, the purpose of being an artist is to get your music heard and to get more gigs, or to be featured in in media. And the way that you can do this is by building an APK. Essentially, that's a an electronic press kit or resume for, for musicians I like to call it because that's kind of what it is really. It's, if you're a novice, it's your resume. So it really helps show the decision makers in the industry, who you are, what you've accomplished, and why they should work for you. Or why they should, you know, sign you as an artist. So a really important thing. And I think, you know, some people might leave this, you know, to a little bit later or don't really think about how important it actually is. Because the thing is, you know, media contacts, venue managers, other musicians, they don't really have the time to sit on the internet and browse for all of these artists. You know, there's only so many hours in the day isn't a busy man. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 15:42 Exactly. So yeah. So it comes down to, you know, finding a way to cutting through is is basically what you're saying, you know, you can't just sit there and hope that because you put it out on the internet, that it's not that you're not going to be discovered. Daniel Musgrave 15:58 That's exactly yeah, totally hit now that they receive hundreds of requests every single day. And so the best way to get their attention is to make their job as easy as possible. Yeah, you know, so that's what an APK allows you to do. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 16:11 Got it. So basically, what you're just trying to describe is that you look at your own art artists appearance from, you know, record labels angle, and look at yourself through their lens, basically. That's, Daniel Musgrave 16:24 that's exactly right. Yeah, exactly. That's Jan 'Yarn' Muths 16:26 a very smart, smart way to do it. And, you know, one little recommendation from my end is, you know, just do a Google search and see what comes up when you search for yourself or for your own artists name. And that's exactly what they will see. And if that's if you're not at the very top, or, you know, the second or third may maximum, maybe, you know, then you need to Zacharias, Daniel Musgrave 16:47 yeah, then they're gonna get an immediate indication about who you are as an artist and a person by that quick google search. And so the, the APK really just allows you to package everything up that you want them to know, in a quick, visually appealing, easy to read user friendly format. You know, and that's, and that's kind of the, the foundations of marketing too, you know, you want to make people understand what you do are in is clear, concise, and easy way as possible, and not really send them off in too many directions. to sort of get the message across. Okay, so, so yeah, so, you know, so for those who are wondering, Well, what, what is an APK? What are you talking about? How do I do this. So basically, that's the purpose of your website is to host this APK. And there's a bunch of different websites that you can actually go on there can help you build your own website, so things like Squarespace, Wix, WordPress, they're really fantastic. They offer a relatively cheap subscription, around 30 Australian dollars per month. And basically, it's a drag and drop format, that you can really have templates as well that you can use that you can build your own website, and so dedicated to how you like it to look. So for those of you looking looking to build a website, that that's where you sort of head from the start. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 18:12 And there are usually some free tiers as well to get started. But often The downside is for you know, when you use let's say free Wix account that you actually can't have your own URL, that would usually then say, Wix in the name. Is that acceptable for for beginning artists for you know, first year? Or was that a big loan? Or from a marketing point of view? You know, Daniel Musgrave 18:33 it's a bit of a No, no, from a marketing point of view. Okay. Yeah, I think, you know, even sometimes your content may shine through as well, but you want to put yourself because at the end of the day, management labels are looking for the best of the best. And you sort of want to have everything to meet their expectations. Um, so know that, that you can be something that's marketable in there as as well. Um, so if you can, you know, spend a little bit of money on you know, purchasing a domain, and setting up your website. So from the outside, it looks really good. I think you're going to set yourself up really well into the future. So you don't have to do that. But it certainly does help. But you know, it's in the grand scheme of things, you know, that the money that people spend on equipment, sound gear, you know, other subscriptions. Yes, it's a relatively small expense for a possible really great outcome. So, and also, if you want to create an APK from scratch, there's also other services out there that have very easy to use templates, and you essentially just put in your, your artist details and, and it'll sort of pre fill the information for you. I think ReverbNation is one. Sonic birds is another that I've used. So yeah, they're all really great. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 19:57 So that's to get some order to know you basically use use one of these templates. But I guess, being a musician, we all assume that we are creators. And as a creative, it's a wise idea to use their creativity to make your own EPK stand out. So if absolutely, if you just use templates, then you know, you have to be aware that you might look like just everybody else, or there will be hundreds, maybe 1000s of people using the same template. So I guess, you know, I think as musician, we have a certain advantage. And that's all creativity now, which we should play, we replay this, this card and marketing. So let's talk about the next step. So you know, let's say an artist has set up all these has set up the infrastructure, there's a Facebook account, Instagram, YouTube, now the website is in the making. It's not actually done at this stage, you know, isn't that actually when the real work starts now and we need to fill it with content? And we have to do it on a regular basis? Can Can we talk about that for a moment? What's the best methods to actually you know, engage listeners to get more likes to reach an audience and, and grow an audience with what limitations? Daniel Musgrave 21:10 Well, I think, you know, going back to the, the contents of an APK, these are sort of the building blocks of your your overall content journey, and things that you probably need to have a collection of at the start. So things like, obviously, your music, your best music, you know, your top, your best AP are your top few tracks. So the most, if you're already streaming, you know, music, then the highest stream songs that you have. So they're going to be, obviously your best asset assets. Because that's what you know, that's what that's the art that you create. So your musics The first thing, the second thing would be some sort of biography. So a way to explain to your audience you know, who you are, what's your personality and things that you've done some of the achievements that you've, you've also had as well. The next thing is also very critically important thing is two to three of your best press shots. And some people can sometimes skip on this as well, I think it's super important to get a couple of good press shots, you know, so if you have, you don't want to be, you know, taking photos of your phone, or photos of you at a party or a photo of someone else has taken you know, a few years back, that's got nothing to do with your brand. Or you as an artist, you know, find a mate who's got a digital or DSLR camera, you know, a decent camera, or, you know, if you have to hire one, or you have to pay someone to take some photos, and go out to somewhere with a lighting skirt, the backgrounds good, you know, where some decent clothes, do your hair, and get some good photos of yourself? Because this is going to be sort of the cover of not only your content pages, but your APK and your website. Yes. And also. So would you would you agree? Yeah. Do you think that's something that's important? Jan 'Yarn' Muths 23:02 Yes, people say that, you know, you get only one chance at giving a first impression, and therefore the first picture of people see, you know, viewers will immediately judge and if it feels like an amateur picture, that sets the expectation of what to expect next. So I think it makes perfect sense. But I would probably add to this, that, you know, it's got to be true to who you are. So you know, if you're a punk rocker, then obviously don't dress up in a suit or anything like this, you know, or pose, you know, in a matter that just isn't you. So I guess it comes comes down to really being yourself and in developing certain vibe around you, that represents you and your music. And you know, there's absolutely first opportunity to distinguish and to differentiate from from the crowd, you probably Daniel Musgrave 23:52 you probably were just going to say you probably noticed, if you've been listening to an artist, and you haven't seen it, you haven't never seen a photo of the music and listening to them. And then all of a sudden, you look at their an interview of them, or you see a bit of album, artwork, or an album cover or a photo of them. And your perception of them immediately shifts, usually to the positive if it's a if it's a good piece of content. Because you've sort of got you've developed this impression of them, and then you see a photo and you're like, oh, wow, he sort of starts to visualize. Yes, when you listen to them, you see what they look like, and you see what they represent. And you sort of just do this subconsciously. I've certainly done it before you see if you want to see what they look like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah, now, session of them suddenly changed. And if that impression isn't a good one, you know, that may not be necessarily positive thing for the artists. So it's super important, the visual aspect of music. I think visualizing what you're listening to, and who's making the music or where it's coming from is also just as important as the audio element of it in a way Jan 'Yarn' Muths 24:56 Yeah. You may also want to consider to you know, think about What's your target audiences and what they would expect? So, you know, just to use very obvious example, if let's say you do play country music, then it might actually be a good idea to do a Photoshop, let's say in a barn, because people who see that from a distance immediately have this association with that, or if you're a surf band, you know, then just have surfboard. So the beach in the background? Yeah, and I guess, but that's a fine line, you know, we don't want to do it shouldn't be too obvious, like a cliche, it's got to still be you in some way? Daniel Musgrave 25:32 And it seems obvious, doesn't it? You know, yeah. But Jan 'Yarn' Muths 25:36 it's still quite difficult to actually do practically and to not do it well. So I guess it's considered a Gianni. You know, just get started, just get started and think about it. But you know, don't worry too much about it. Just go ahead. And yeah, refine it as you go. I'd say. So yeah, it wouldn't serve anything to you know, spend half a year on planning photo shoot, it's much better just to get it out quickly. Would you agree with that? Daniel Musgrave 26:04 Yeah, totally. Yeah, you want to do some sort of pre production planning, you know, let's get a rough idea about what you're going to do. Yeah, set the location. But that's exactly right. You can't spend too much time, you know, worrying about these sorts of things, and pick the obvious choice. And sometimes a lot of people don't do that, as you said, If you surf Ben, go down to the beach, have some surfboards there. Um, so this image is really going to align with the genre and the brand that you're trying to perceive. So yes, and you're exactly right. They're young, but some people tend to not even really think about these sorts of things. And they go, Ah, yes, so true. You know, I've I've been doing this, so why shouldn't I do this? You know, and it's sort of just taking off the obvious choices, filling in all the blanks, you know. So, so Yeah, and I think the, so one of the final ish things, sort of this APK. And just to sort of get started to grow, the followers is also any press, press stuff that you have out there any testimonials, or any publications that you've been featured in, you know, it's really, really good to pull up a few quick quotes about something that you've been featured in, or some good thing that someone has said, That's always a nice addition. You know, any industry person, any producer, engineer, co writer, photographer, whatever. A few nice words really helps push that perception of you along, I think. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 27:25 And once you know, this entire marketing machine starts to roll over, how often should you generate content? Are there any guidelines, hold on, only one should know, publish something, Daniel Musgrave 27:36 I think a lot of people talking about this word called algorithm. And it sounds like a bit of a technically scary word. And the fact of the matter is, algorithms are very technical. And not so much scary, but they're quite complicated. But there is a way that you can master the algorithm of these social platforms and make it that is not necessarily your enemy. So one of the good things is yet to be posting frequent content. But not just frequent content, but the high quality content. So basically, in the eyes of the algorithm, good content is a post that will keep an audience on the platform for longer. So good kept content on Instagram is something that's going to keep someone on your on your profile, or just on the platform for an extended period of time. So the algorithm will see good content is something that people will engage in. So that's why sometimes you can prompt a question in a post, you know, try and get some feedback. And then that starts a conversation, and conversations or what the algorithm just decipher is good content. So that's something that's super important to do. Another thing, obviously, is to consider promoting your posts. So let's just say your your posting, you know, two or three times a week, and then that's, yeah, there's a lot of things that get thrown around. Nowadays, you know, people should be posting 10 times a week, they should be posting, you know, four times a week, I think, you know, you really want to do whatever comes sort of naturally and feels good to you. And depending on what your brand is, like your brand could be someone who just talks all the time and just constantly pushes out stuff about every single minute of their life, you know, that some people may want to be a little bit more reserved and want to hold those conversations and those pieces of content and build them up into, you know, bigger blocks, three times a week. So I don't think there's any strict number about the amount of content you put out, but just make sure that it's a decent quality. And then, and then something once it has that, that a quality element to it. You can then promote these posts and that can be a highly effective Why have these pieces of content reaching new eyes? And new is? Jan 'Yarn' Muths 30:04 Excellent. So it really comes down to generating some interest you want to see replies you want, you need to answer questions, maybe in the post in the replies and keep a discussion going. Daniel Musgrave 30:14 That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then also, obviously, that the paid element to it as well. Now, do you think this is something that your listeners would want to hear about? paid advertising? Jan 'Yarn' Muths 30:28 Yeah, stage, you know, is it worthwhile going for paid advertisement? You know, should should a young artist bother doing that? Or is that more for the bigger artists? when is the right time to decide that it's that you want to spend some money on paid advertisement? Daniel Musgrave 30:45 Yeah, as I said, before, you know, musicians have no trouble spending hundreds, if not 1000s, of dollars, on instruments, equipment, software, you know, all that sort of thing. So there's a tool to help us create the music, but they don't see investing, promoting their music as unnecessary expense. So it's a bit of an old mentality, I think, and they sometimes think that the fans will just flock to them organically. And so organically means that, um, it's a, essentially a Facebook post that does no monetary value behind it. Yeah, you haven't invested anything. And then also, you know, some people, you know, maybe thinking that, you know, I see those bloody, sponsored Instagram stories all the time, they're really annoying. And, you know, that's true. And the thing is, that paid advertisement space has become quite saturated. But there's, you know, there is good reason for it, it does work. But that being said, there's a wrong and a right way to do social media ads. So I won't necessarily talk about how to set up, I don't just go through some, maybe some tactics of what you can do. But if you know, any listeners can go out and do a Google search on how to set up social media ads, there's going to be a lot of great tutorials out there, you know, on YouTube, and whatever platform you use. So you can sort of get the basics of how to set up the ads there. Because it can be a little bit scary if you've never seen something like Facebook Ads Manager before. But once you sort of get the a bit of a handle on it, then it'll give you an opportunity to start to start putting out some some ads. So for any young, I think, you know, from the outset, if you're starting a new page, that can sometimes be the most important time to put a little bit of money behind some ads, because it's really hard to sometimes break through the ceiling, that is the behemoth of social media and, and not only that, musicians on social media, as I said before, it's such a saturated market. So you can spend, you know years not even be able to get 100 likes on on your page. Just because it's so there's so much out there that people's eyes are currently getting directed towards something else. And that's really why Facebook wants you to spend a little bit of money. So you can sort of break through that ceiling. So So basically, if you've got some, some spare cash, and it's probably not going to be spare cash, but I think it needs to be cashed that you have put aside to to invest in, in promoting your brand. So you need to know what your objectives are. When when doing this, you don't just go and spend money straightaway. You need to understand, what are you paying for? What are you hoping to gain? Because the thing is, if you're just throwing money there front and center, it becomes very unsustainable and it's not cheap, either. Yep. Got it. So So your goal should be really to gain real fans, you know, proper fans, not just people who click on your link and then not be interested in what you're doing. So that's why your strategies is really important. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 34:02 Tied to element that's really interesting. Over the last few days, I think I had six or seven people contacting me via my social media trying to offer me 1000 clicks for $20 or you know 10,000 clicks or likes for your $100 whatever those people who are these people who's actually doing these things, is there any substance behind that or is that that or a scam Daniel Musgrave 34:26 I'm gonna see I'm gonna say it's pretty much all a scam. And there's very subtle ones in behind it. Okay, because as I said before, you know, you want to obtain real fair and real people, they're just going to be selling you clicks of robots or bots, as we call, just clicks for the sake of clicks that really on the outside may look good. But what's the point of having 100,000 likes, when 99,000 of them are fake, you know, I'd rather have 5000 likes and 4000 than a real so so as From the ads outside perspective, it may look good, but it's really not doing you any, any justice for your brand. Okay, so Jan 'Yarn' Muths 35:07 that would be a bad investment. Daniel Musgrave 35:09 Absolutely. That's why the targeting is important. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So Jan 'Yarn' Muths 35:12 that's something to do. I even heard stories that, you know, sometimes people use these strategies get penalized if you know, Google or Facebook see a huge spike in likes, and then, like a big transient and then nothing for a while, that they can actually sense that is all fake and then penalize artists for for doing that. Well, I'm not sure if that's true. Have you have you? Have you heard about that before? Does that actually happen? Daniel Musgrave 35:40 but not necessarily a massive penalty, but it certainly the algorithm would would pick up on it pretty quickly. Yeah. And that'd be the penalty there. Yeah, if it seems organic, or unnatural, spiking in followers all of a sudden, then the algorithm would pretty quickly pick that up and know that it's not legit. And then I guess, you know, your penalty would be that, it's not going to help you at all, in the short or long term, having these these bots engaging with your account. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 36:09 So when we talk about, you know, social media posts, I guess, it all should always revolve around a release. So if we think about, let's say, a young artist who, let's say releases, let's say a single every two months, would it make sense to build up a certain routine where you know, start getting people excited in the weeks leading up to the, to the release? And then, you know, have a certain routine of follow up videos or posts that go with every single release? So that, you know, some of your social media posts are sort of pre planned? Daniel Musgrave 36:41 Yeah, absolutely, it's really important to schedule your social media posts. That's why the Facebook content creator, application is really good, even in the business suite as well. So it allows you to pre plan and set dates and schedule for all the content that you want to roll out over the space of a campaign. So and that, I guess, you know, when it comes down to your your paid ads, you think of an album launch as a campaign. It's sort of an overarching umbrella. So obviously, that the top of the umbrella is the album release, then underneath the umbrella, you have all these different multistage military campaigns within that with different pieces of content, that sort of filter through and ultimately get everyone to the end goal, which is listening to the album. So you can certainly Enya that's a really good example. Yeah, and as a way to create small bite sized pieces of content that you would probably put a little bit of money behind and set up your targeting accordingly. To then drive them to the album launch, which would be you know, that to say the campaign goes for a month would be amongst down the track. And, and I guess you say it is like, it's like a big funnel. And in marketing sales, it's called the sales funnel. And at the top of the funnel, it's people that have never heard of you before, have never engaged with your brand or your business. And you sort of push out this content, and you sort of see who will grab on those people that grab on initially, they haven't gained your full trust yet, they don't really know who you are, they're just a little bit interested in what you're doing. And sort of once you have received that initial engagement, it's time to pull them down the funnel, and feed them through bite sized chunks of a bit more content within this campaign, which is the album launch to then gain their trust to then let them know who you are. And then to also not be too sales related. You don't want to push people to purchase your album or to listen to your music straightaway. because that'll immediately they'll become disinterested, be one almost give them more value, give them give them free pieces of entertainment. And then once they're pushed, been pushed down the funnel right to the bottom. That's your opportunity then because because once someone gets to that stage, they're really a true fan. In a sense yeah, they're really engaged with what you're doing they really want to listen to no more and then that's your opportunity then to get them to jump across to your streaming platform and listen and download your music Jan 'Yarn' Muths 39:22 I got it I think that's that's really valuable what you just said In other words, you want to guide the your your crowd, your your followers to actually buy a record, but without actually telling them to so you don't want to be the salesperson who yells out loud, buy my product, buy my product, because that's actually very unattractive or fine, but just want to generate, you know, a general vibe where naturally people just want to buy it. Is that right? Daniel Musgrave 39:45 That's, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Fantastic. So that and that beats the sales element of it, because you don't need to sell anything. You know, people are coming to the journey with you. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths 39:59 Fantastic. So if an artist, let's say works on a new release, they could basically start by taking some photos afford snippets or videos from the rehearsal room, then maybe, you know, from a recording session, doing the same thing again, then maybe, you know, some, some photos or videos of you know, being together as a group having lunch or, you know, a break from the studio and maybe then a little snippet from from the mixing stage, and then they're released consecutively until the actual album comes out is is, is that what you're saying? Ah, from a recording session and doing the same thing again. Then maybe you know some some photos or videos of you know, being together as a group having lunch or you know a break from the studio and maybe then a little snippet from from the mixing stage and then they're released consecutively. Until the actual album comes out is is that what you're saying. That's exactly right? Yeah you're sort of taking people on this creative journey that that you're on as well and they're sort of they're getting to know who you are. They're getting to know your creative process and that really is going to make them more likely to to see what the final product is yeah so that's. That's a really good example john of of how to guide people through that that that journey um and to to really get inside what it is that you do and get to know you as an artist. Yeah, and you know all those things are quite attainable to to produce as well. You know. So many people if they're in a studio The first thing they want to do is get their phone out and you know record the the console and record what they're doing and say how cool is this you know I think I've been guilty of doing that as well. Of course I'd we all. Ah you know and everyone takes photos of their food. Yeah. So you just do what you're doing anyway. But you're just documenting it. You know you're just keeping it there and then you're pushing it out and then everybody else see that as well. Yeah, and um, for you know for bands if if there's more than 1 member. There are some methods that you can use to consolidate all the data. So if it's spread across a couple of different mobile phones or. Ipads or whatever you use actually got free a cloud drives and you could it and yeah, you could set 1 up for your band and give everybody access and everybody just you know has the app on their phone and just presses the button and it all goes into the cloud. So the drum the bass player the guitar player they can just all hit the button and it or. Goes into 1 place. Yeah, it's um, it's it's ah that's for something that I try and really promoted what you just mentioned um like cloud storage or cloud drives if you can utilize them correctly. They're so powerful and so useful um to optimize. What you're doing um as a business or as an artist and that's what I really try and promote is is sort of personal and business optimization. You know your your business or your your brand on your your artist's label. It might be good but you know you want to take it to great and the way to take it to. Great is to have everything communicating everything talking everything stored correctly, you know you're not losing any information and that's why things you know I'm not going to um, drop names. But you know cloud services um are so vital and important because everyone can act as you in a band. Everyone can access this cloud service anywhere. At any point in time. Um, so the ability to dump information to upload ideas instantly. Um and and also having um, connected devices your laptops your phones your your you know your watches all speaking with each other as well is a super way to to get? um. Ah, information or ideas if you're creative you know because they just come to you you you can never predict when those creative ideas will come um a way to get them out. Get them. You know digitized in a way or get them stored into a cloud to then be able to repurpose reuse the content. Um, when when you need it yeahp that's really good and you know there's just no. No such thing as too much content. It's for a really good idea to not just release every bit you you capture, but maybe for every ten minutes you capture just find the best 1 minute and it can really help to together the information from the entire band and maybe even chance you can even. Use methods to allow fans to submit their videos to you I'm I'm using I'm not sure if I should mention all these services here but on my website um and using a paid service for the name of drive uploader I'm sure there are other alternatives and maybe even free ones. But no, there are methods where you can just literally have people. Yeah, upload files for you and they all together in 1 place. That's that's really good. That's really good. Yes, thanks good I'm just going to say quickly. Um, as your listeners are probably starting to discover in the world of um in the digital world and you know, optimizing everything. Um efficiently There's so many tools out there. Yeah, we've just only touched on a couple but it can get a bit overwhelming. Um, but if you can get a handle on you know at least a couple of them it can you can see how important it is and how much more efficient it can make um you as an artist and as a business owner. So I just wanted to say that quickly. Yeah I'm a big fan of automation and yeah, large proportion of of my. Business is literally automated where my computer and cloud services just do half the work for me. Yeah, and how much better does it make it for It's amazing. Isn't it. Yes, exactly and I got to tune to a point where I spend very very little time managing files and where you know I spent a lot more time actually doing the creative work. And I guess that's the the goal. So maybe that could be a subject for another episode to talk about all the automation servicess and how to set set up systems. That's maybe but so for for today good look how how soon can 1 expect results. So um. I've spoken to a couple of young artists. They said I started my marketing and I just can't see any results I'm giving up now. What would you say to those people who were what's going wrong? How soon should we expect results and um, well look if you do everything the right way. Um. Results are going to be exponential. So basically what I mean by that is they're never going to start off with a massive bang for 99 percent of ah of the cases. Um, it's going to be small. Ah, you're going to see small growth at the start even for the first twelve months you might not see much happen in it. All the thing is you a lot of people that don't see the growth don't have a proper understanding of how to use these tools effectively and once they learn how to use these tools effectively then. Ah, the growth in in their their profiles would significantly increase because you know people may talk to you and say um, yeah I just can't you know I'm getting no fans engaging with me and I was listening to what I'm doing. You know my music's really good but and they and they believe that it is as well. But they're just not getting um the the streams that they desire. So as I said before the the music element is just 1 part of this this whole? Um yeah, being a musician and being an artist and having a personal brand the the other part is everything that we've discussed um you know prior to that question. Ah, you know you need to have all these things in place and if or you have all of these these tools set up and in place then I've no doubt that you'll definitely see um growth exponential growth so small at the start and then as you start building a fan base. It will certain that they grow. Um. At a rapid pace. Um, and within you know a couple of years you have a pretty pretty substantial fan bases if you're if you're doing everything correctly, but obviously the most important thing is is putting out music that your fans really want to engage with of course I'm so yeah I think I think that's probably would be my answer to that question. jan. Um, and a lot of people. They may think that they're they're doing the right things in terms of their marketing and promotion. But the stars just may not be aligning correctly, it might not be exactly what their fans want want to hear you know or want to see they might be being too Salesy. You know they might say come to my van or. Ah, listen to my soul click on this and now yeah, not the approach that we want to have that's right? That's right Yeah and I have a Facebook friend who I have very little contact with but every couple of days I get you know a message saying listen to this and that's all it says there's no hello. It just like listen like the movie. Command me to do something and that's just not what people like you know it's it's always nice. You know? Yeah, if if you want to sell something. Don't start with a sale. You know you got to small help first I guess and and you know get to know the yeah now you're exactly right? exactly right? Ah, communication is vital in this space. Um, but also. Communicating your brand's identity to your fans is vital and as I said before yeah, the Brand um or your communication style will ultimately always beat the sales and and as you said before people should be out of google your name and within a few minutes get ah a good sense of um who you are and and what you represent. So the biggest asset that you can have in all of this is other people's attention. Um, the attention is more valuable than selling in all circumstances and that's what essentially social media is all about is is engaging in people's attention. Um, and then not. You know, having to to sell until you really need to sell right at the bottom of the funnel right? when it's important right? when that album comes out and and when you offer that sales pitch people will have no issue in following through they'll almost be thankful that you've put it there because I've been waiting so long. You know. Yeah they're on the edge of their seat. They just want to. They just want to listen to it so you're sort of building it up to that point. Um, so again I think you know if people are having trouble building that fan base and building that follow-in I think really come back to what is your brand. What is your. Personality. What are you really trying to achieve and really hone that in and figure that out. Um, and and you know you know step you take your foot off the the pedal of the the sales and and more put it down to communicating what your brand is and and your personality. Oh that's pretty good. Yeah that's a fantastic wisdom Thank you so much for sharing hi horse if somebody wanted to reach out to you and find out more about yourself dan where would they go? Yeah well um, I've actually just launched a new consulting agency. Um, and so. It's called free wave digital. So f r w wave digital. Um, so if you you can find me on Instagram just at Freewa digital and then I have the link treee there. it' our website and all the other social platforms or if you want to um, just get in touch with me personally um, you can find me on Linkedin. At dan muskgrave or on Facebook as well. I'm just dan muskgrave I mean have a chat there? Um, so yeah, that's how you you get to know me um or fan you around the ah the byron bay area. You probably see me in the surf or see me on the soccer field. Perhaps. Okay, and of course I'd like to put all of those links into into the show notes as well. So if you want to know more and get in touch with dan just click on the show notes scroll down and you'll find all the links to to dan muskgrave right? there. Thank you so much for being with us today. This is. Really good. It's ah it's been an honor having you and I'm I'm taking a lot out of it for myself and I'm sure it's a really valuable episode for for many musicians. Thank you so much Dan Yeah, Thanks so much Ja It is really great So to talk with you and to talk to everyone um about about the world of ah marketing and our promotion. And hopefully people can take a little bit out of this and help um, develop their own brands going forward Sounds good. Well I Shelll see you soon and enjoy the surf. Thanks, cheers. Wow, that was 1 amazing episode today. Thank you so much to you, Dan, for sharing all your wisdom with us. Now, I want you to get started with your marketing and get your hands dirty. Just remember the hardest part is actually to get started. So my recommendation is to choose 1 thing that you learned today and get into it. Just do it. Don't aim to get your marketing 1 hundred percent perfect at this stage. Get it done instead, then repeat and promote yourself again and again and again. Until you develop a routine and a habit when you do that your promotion will automatically get better more effective more professional or by itself. You've got something to do start your marketing I'll speak to you again next week thanks again for listening in. Bye for now.