Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome to the Production Talk podcast with me, Yarn, of mixartists.com.au. In this podcast series, we celebrate the modern way of producing music. We want to talk about all things related to songwriting, recording at home and music production. So, if you produce your music at home, this is the place to be. Please subscribe and recommend this podcast to all your friends. This is the Production Talk Podcast episode 48. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome to another episode of the Production Talk podcast. At the beginning of this episode, as always, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the country that we are meeting on today and the Arakwal people of the Bundjalung nation and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Blessed love. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: With me today is Heather Bonnefond. Welcome to the podcast and thank you for having me at your place here. How are you today? . Yeah, it's great to have you look, Heather, we had your partner Jim, on this podcast before, so I'm sure that the regular listeners probably know episode 18 with your partner, Jim, how is Jim going these days? Heather Bonnefond: He's in San Francisco. at the moment. Having. five or six weeks. In the states with friends and family. So we get to catch up with everybody. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent. Excellent. So it gives us some time to, you know, speak about you and your career. You, Heather Bonnefond: doesn't steal my, my limelight Heather Bonnefond: That's why I sent him away to the states. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: oh, well Heather Bonnefond: well, well he's a hard one to compete with. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, but he's also a very humble person, Heather Bonnefond: yes he is. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Excellent. So you two are a couple of two sound professionals. Heather Bonnefond: Yes we are. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Is this how you met through, through your work? Heather Bonnefond: We met yes, we actually met through a friend, but Heather Bonnefond: then we met as I was managing a studio and Jim came in as. client and the previous client was running over. And so Jim had to wait in my office. Heather Bonnefond: while he was waiting to go into the studio. So that's kind of how we met, but we had met through a mutual friend as well. Okay. So, yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you literally met in the studio, Heather Bonnefond: We did meet in the studio Jan 'Yarn' Muths: hotel. Okay. So maybe give us a bit of a broader overview of your career in audio. Okay. Heather Bonnefond: okay. Well, I start, I came to Sydney and from Victoria and I was working. in Advertising at the time, but I was dating a guitarist. Heather Bonnefond: and he was going to join air supply. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: And it's a di difficult story to tell. So I'll try and be brief. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that's okay. Heather Bonnefond: So I was working in advertising and I was working as an assistant producer. and we used to do Levi's Qantas, Helen Rubinstein and Coke commercials. And one of my jobs was to go into a studio to time the jingles you know, make sure there were 58 seconds that you 20, 28 seconds for the fade out. So I went into the studio and I was just Beau and it was a studio called United sound in Glebe. And it was above a film studio where Bruce Barford who wasn't very well known then, but he did hanging rock picnic at hanging rock and there was a whole film studio underneath. So I had gone up there to, Time, these jingles. And couple of weeks later I left my job. I then went to Perth with the young man I was dating and was speaking to one of their sound. He was playing in a band and I was speaking to the sound guy and I said, I'd really like to do this. Heather Bonnefond: And so happened that he was, had an argument with his girlfriend and took off down the street and said, could you mind the console? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You're right. Heather Bonnefond: yeah, big mistake. Somehow I turned front house off. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, wow. Oh Heather Bonnefond: Yeah, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: no mistake. Heather Bonnefond: The guys from Richie Blackmore's rainbow had been, had come over the crew had come over to the club and they were having a drink watching me do this. Heather Bonnefond: Did not know what I was doing, but he said just, you know, move the faders a little bit. So I turned front of house off somehow and the guys were laughing, sing behind me. and they said, do you know what you're doing? I said, Absolutely not. And They said, let me show you some things. So that was my introduction. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, wow. Heather Bonnefond: I then got a job with a band over there and did front of house for probably a year and a half didn't again, still didn't really know what I was doing. Heather Bonnefond: Just finding my way, but so were they, and Jan 'Yarn' Muths: what year would that have been? Roughly? Heather Bonnefond: was around 70, 76. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, I would've been one year old Heather Bonnefond: Thanks for Jan 'Yarn' Muths: in 75. Heather Bonnefond: you so much for that. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Sorry. Don't mean to interrupt this in, but wow. You know, those were the things you were doing while that was literally in diapers. Heather Bonnefond: seventies, like live through the seventies and you didn't. Well, you did, but you're a Jan 'Yarn' Muths: envy, I envy, you know, he has so many great things, you know, the seventies, musically, what a decade. Heather Bonnefond: It was amazing. Mm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: mm. Heather Bonnefond: So cause we used to drive across the null ball plane in the truck and three other vehicles and we would drive across to Perth and drive back. Wow. So it was pretty amazing. That was a, that was a really good time. So when I got back to Sydney, I decided to go back to the studio. Heather Bonnefond: that I had done the, gone to check the timing for the jingles for the advertising agency I worked for. and there was a guy there at the time called Spencer. Lee. And he was a pretty outrageous character, Heather Bonnefond: had worked for pink Floyd in the UK years before very innovative. And creative. And he was willing to take a little bit of a chance on me. So he my assistant is gone for two weeks holiday. So you can come here, you can do two weeks, but I'm not paying you. And at the end of the two weeks you are done, he said, but it'll give you a little bit of experience to see if you like this kind of work. Heather Bonnefond: So my interview lasted for a 12 hours. cause he wanted to see if I could, what I was like with balance. Just balancing sound. And we had, they had an API console. So it was, it was an amazing studio and then, so after the interview I did my two weeks and he, I was in my twenties by this Heather Bonnefond: time I'm like 23 and I was sitting, I would be sitting sewing, seagrass matting together. and making coffee and just doing everything and Coming from a job in advertising where Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I was Heather Bonnefond: getting really good money, but I loved this job. I just loved it. So the Friday night came, he didn't say anything. This was the end of my, two weeks. He didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. And I turned up again on Monday. Heather Bonnefond: just so take a Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you're right. Heather Bonnefond: And he basically, said, if you hadn't have turned up. You know, I would've been disappointed even though I'd said just two weeks. So I was there for quite a few years. And that's how I got started. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But then you got paid from Heather Bonnefond: Oh, yeah, but I used to get a dollar an hour. Heather Bonnefond: I used to work Heather Bonnefond: 80, 80 hours a week. Oh, ouch. Wow. That's Jan 'Yarn' Muths: 80 hours a week. Oh, ouch. Whoa. That's a rough start. yeah. Heather Bonnefond: So I ended up having to say to him, look I can't live. and I was doing, I was still doing live sound. So at nighttime I'd work in the studio and I'd start in the cross with some of the bands that were working in the cross. Heather Bonnefond: At that time, there was a lot of. amazing bands that was the Place to hear music In the seventies. So this time it's like 78. Heather Bonnefond: So I started working at United sound around 1978, definitely that year, actually. So then I would leave the studio and go straight to clubs in the cross and work till three or four in the morning. Wow. And then have a few hours sleep, be back in the studio and crazy. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: pretty crazy. Heather Bonnefond: So yeah, that's where my start came from. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And how long did it take until your workload eased? A bit until you got into more of a sustainable, you know, workload Heather Bonnefond: 20, years. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: about 20 years. Oh no. Oh no. I was hop over. You said a year or two. really crazy. Heather Bonnefond: it it was pretty crazy then. And, you know, as you start something and I think particularly it was a little, it was different for me cuz I was a female. Heather Bonnefond: and I Had to, prove myself. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. Heather Bonnefond: And so I kind of had to push, I felt like I had to push myself even. just to prove myself. Cause a lot of guys there was another girl. I bef I had done a little bit of research to make sure that some of the facts that I might be telling you were true. There was another woman who had started Alberts at the time, called Karen Hewit. She started at the same year as I did, but we didn't really know much of each. Heather Bonnefond: other cuz She had gone to Melbourne and then started to work for stock, Aikman and water Who wrote Kylie Minow or Kylie mano songs and Rick Asley, Donna summer, people like that. So she had gone and I was the, I was the female who was doing commercial or commercial music engineering. So, and. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Just to give us a rough idea. You know, we all know the seventies was a very different time and well, at least what I know these days, which is mainly from TV shows and so on was somewhat chauvinistic. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Is that a fair thing to say? Heather Bonnefond: Yeah, it was. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, Heather Bonnefond: but I have to say that there were a few incidences. where People were uncomfortable having a female in the studio. Yeah. But all in all my experience. was actually really good. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: so glad to hear that. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. I mean, you have to deal with certain things. And I think you have to be as a female working in a more male dominated industry, you have to deal with certain things. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. And tolerate certain things. And it was harder then, you know, I, I had done. I Remember I had tracked all the mental as anything. I didn't mix it, but I recorded all of mental as anything's album. And I remember at the time they didn't wanna give me the credit as engineer. And Jan 'Yarn' Muths: why would that be? Heather Bonnefond: Because it was not looked at as being they wanted a male. So it, it didn't give them authenticity. They felt, I think so I got recorded by, and I was Heather Dalton. Then I got the credit recorded by, after my boss fought with them and went, no, no, no, you can't do this. So there was that, and there was a few incidences. there's things you have to turn a blind, a lot of things you have to turn a blind eye. to and not get offended by. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. And I probably would not be like that now. I would probably have maybe clearer boundaries because I could. But at that time I knew I was coming into an. industry Where they just weren't used to having women in the studio at all. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Just give us a rough idea. How, how many women were professional sound engineers around that time in Heather Bonnefond: None. There was Karen Hewit in Melbourne and there was myself in Sydney. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you're saying you were among the first two? Yes. Female sound engineers in Australia that we Heather Bonnefond: there may have been others odds and ends, but actually doing albums and working, you know, like With more high level groups and bands. Heather Bonnefond: There was really Karen and I. Okay. And we really didn't know anything of each other. and It wasn't until I did the resell, I knew of her. But I didn't know what she had, where she had gone. And she probably didn't know of me because Melbourne and Sydney. there's a, it's a Very different scene. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. Yeah, of course. Very different. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. All right. And let's just keep going with your career, you know, that was sort of in the seventies mm-hmm and what happened in the decades after how did you grow as a professional? What other challenges did you, did you Heather Bonnefond: I went freelance? About, Heather Bonnefond: probably 90. So 78. I probably went freelance around 1981. Heather Bonnefond: And that was mainly cuz I had a baby as well. So I was Working at, EMI. Well, I worked at, I worked freelance as an engineer, but I, I also worked in studios as a manager or, a co-manager so I was doing both, so I managed paradise studios for a but at nighttime. I worked at Sony. recording. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, wow. Okay. Heather Bonnefond: Oh, wow. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: big Heather Bonnefond: often used to take my son with. me, So there was a lot of to, and fro, and I was very lucky because I, I felt like I was well accepted in the industry. Heather Bonnefond: And if I can say something, I think I was because I was open. I was open to, I think I created a fairly good vibe in the studio. I understood that. I understood it was their space. I understood. that There's five people that are here and you, are trying to get the best out of them. So it was a lot of counseling at times a lot of relationship counseling and that was, that turned out. Heather Bonnefond: Well, I mean, I can remember a situation where I, was doing a heavy metal band. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and Taris Heather Bonnefond: the guitarist had had this huge fight with his girlfriend and, and really couldn't perform and they had limited time. Heather Bonnefond: they were paying I think $250 an hour. And that was a lot of money then. So just because I was a female, I was, AB I was able to say, let's go and have a chat, And he was able to share things to me that he might not have shared with other people and, you know and settle him down to a place where he could then start playing. again. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, wow. So yeah, Heather Bonnefond: the balance I felt was good and I wasn't a girly, girly kind of person. And I, Yeah. I loved it. I mean, that's, I loved my life. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. And I worked too hard. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Obviously. Heather Bonnefond: I worked too hard. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So do I understand you correctly that, you know, recording session, managing, recording, session that to you, it's not just aiming the microphones and setting the gain. Right. And that's, it, it's actually way past that. And, you know, really dealing with the people more than the sound engineering aspect. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Do I read that correctly? Heather Bonnefond: Absolutely. Absolutely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you expand on that? What difference does it make if you also bring on the, you know, bring in the personal element in, into a recording session? Heather Bonnefond: I guess I see the job. Yes. You've gotta have the technical expertise. You've gotta be able to operate. The equipment. You have to be able to do that. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: But if you are, if you've got, if you know how to operate the equipment, but the people in the studio don't feel, comfortable, you are not going to be able to get the best. performance out of them. Mm. So I always felt like that, that the other part of my job was kind of probably nearly equal to what, how well I knew the equipment and how I could record. I have to say I probably wasn't the best recording engineer. Heather Bonnefond: around. I definitely wasn't. let's change that. Can we scrap that? Just say I definitely wasn't but I was able to work with people. And they liked that. So there, I had a situation once where a fairly well known engineer, on a high budget album. Got fired, And I got a call at three o'clock in the morning to say, if you can come into paradise and pull a good guitar sound. You've got this gig and it was a Good one. And I realized that the person who was the engineer very well known even internationally. The reason that they let him go was because they wanted to do a guitar. They wanted it, you know, it was a heavy metal band. They wanted the control room to be louder than what he was monitoring. And I understand that as an engineer, he was trying to protect his ears as well, but you've gotta try and find a compromise Mm. And I was able to put, I was able to, I had this thing was to put a D 12 in. Heather Bonnefond: front of the amp And a 58 57 sometimes or, or annoyment what we had and turn them at, put them out of phase. And it was like this. I was able to make this great guitar sound. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Right. With D 12. That's a kick drum Heather Bonnefond: It is a kick drum Jan 'Yarn' Muths: sound. Yeah. All right. Heather Bonnefond: but Spanish taught me this and it was like, and it was a great sound. Heather Bonnefond: Mm. And I knew it was what they needed. Yeah. And so, They weren't happy that I was a female, but they liked what I did. They liked that I was open and I got the gig at three o'clock in the morning. Excellent. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent. Heather Bonnefond: So we did the whole album. I did a lot of counseling. They weren't keen on the fact that I was a female because they had an image to uphold , Jan 'Yarn' Muths: but Heather Bonnefond: eventually we finished the album and they loved it. Heather Bonnefond: So I felt like it wasn't necessarily that I. was a Great engineer, but I definitely was able to work with them. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Right. Heather Bonnefond: And I think that's really, really important. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: and it's about protocol. It's about knowing you are stepping into their space. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. Heather Bonnefond: You're stepping into their space. And what do you want from this? Heather Bonnefond: What do you want for them? And for me it was like, you just keep going over that guitar. solo. You've got it, buddy. It's good. But let's do another. one I can hear. Yeah, that's good. We're gonna keep that one. but I know you've got another one. Let's keep going. Let's keep going, And it's just having Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that, Heather Bonnefond: sitting with them and being with them and because, you know, they want the best. Heather Bonnefond: thing. And then, but later on you say, actually the first one you did it's the best one. I've still got that Jan 'Yarn' Muths: one. Heather Bonnefond: so we use that Jan 'Yarn' Muths: one. Okay. Yeah. And when you say you, you know, you kept the takes that's, there was probably a bit different than it is today on, on computers you were working to analog tape. Yes. So when you wanted to keep a take and still record another one, you needed another track. Heather Bonnefond: we did. you didn't have a lot of choice, but yeah. I mean, you had to do what you did, you know, to get the job done. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You Heather Bonnefond: You had to, you had to. But that's part of it as well. Knowing being able to go he's gonna like this one, he's just a bit lost or she's just a bit lost at the moment. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. Heather Bonnefond: Cause you keep doing it and doing it and doing, it. So let's keep some of these ones and then see how they go. Heather Bonnefond: Quite often they would choose one of the first ones. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. That that's my experience as well. That often the first takes are actually the better ones and you know, not much. Not much good things in my opinion happen after take five or six and so on, it just gets, I find that people get too head heavy. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: They think too much and don't feel enough anymore when. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: themselves too Heather Bonnefond: agree. And I think they think, oh, it can't the first one I can't have done it, you know, let's have another Jan 'Yarn' Muths: go. Okay, good. And you worked in, in studios a lot. How beneficial was it in the studio to have all your life zone knowledge? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Was that something that you could translate to studio work? Was it beneficial to you or was that like a completely different domain? That was sort of, not really. Yeah. Oh, Heather Bonnefond: I think I was quite fast in the control room cuz Doing live. You have to be spontaneous. You have to be really fast. Yeah. So I didn't waste a lot of time Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and that's really good when the clock's ticking in a studio. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. Heather Bonnefond: I mean, when I started learning, of course I, I loved, I loved life sound as much as I like studio sound, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: no preference. You like them Heather Bonnefond: not really. I Like the spontaneity and the creativity of getting that straight. away. Okay Live. but then wasn't that keen about the limitations. But I love that seeing if you could capture that, and you'd, you know, they're they're coming out straight away and you're trying to mix and get sounds and in those days we had to do front of house and monitors. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes, of course. Heather Bonnefond: We're trying when you start, and you're Jan 'Yarn' Muths: are young Heather Bonnefond: and the band's young, you are trying to get all the fall back happening all the front of house happening On song one, Cuz you don't have the opportunity to do it beforehand. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: There was no sound check time or not a lot of time. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Not a lot. Okay. Well Wow. I I've done that with front of house, you know, make the first song, the soundtrack, but with fold back, that's an entirely new story because if you're in the middle of the audience, you have no idea what they hear on stage. Exactly. You can't hear what they hear. So how, how do you practically do that? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Is that signing with musicians foreign Heather Bonnefond: listening, you know, just listening to what they're listening to, trying to do it. as, As you go along. Yeah. And when you work with the same band, you get to know, if you're doing a tour. You get to know where their levels are at. You get to know the songs. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. So it becomes easier. Some of the harder things were stepping into a gig. So I was doing a gig. We were doing a support gig and it was Noiseworks who. Heather Bonnefond: used to be called the change. Heather Bonnefond: And they were supporting my sex and we Did the sound check and Heather Bonnefond: I could see that the crew from my sex just did not were not keen having a female touch their equipment. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: really. Heather Bonnefond: So we did our sound check, but they had changed all the compressors and they had had done a lot of, not very pleasant things. So I had to pretend Jan 'Yarn' Muths: were, were they actually sabotaging Heather Bonnefond: Oh yeah, yeah. yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, what? Heather Bonnefond: what so I had to do, I had to pull the female card and pretend that I didn't know how all the equipment worked, and ask the guys, if they could show me How some of the equipment worked, so I could get the compressors and I could get the equalizers the way. Heather Bonnefond: So I kind of came across. Heather Bonnefond: Like, I don't really know how these things work. Would you mind showing me. Okay. So this Started showing me compressors and I went, oh, you can leave them on. I said, can I just change this a little bit? And he was like, yeah. So Our band came on, I started changing everything and the guy turned around to me, the guy who's doing front of house said, you con in you. And. Heather Bonnefond: I said, absolutely, this is the band. My job is to do the best job I can for the band. and it was like, wow, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you never get that situation really well then you didn't seek any front confrontation that probably wouldn't have, you know, worked to confront him and you just couldn't have. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. and they were Heather Bonnefond: and they were the guys who said called me the chick sound. Heather Bonnefond: guy. I love that name. The. chick sound guy Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Crazy times. Well, we've come a long way. What advice would you have for, you know, girls and women today who want to start in this in the professional sound world? Heather Bonnefond: I think that I have, I have a for Me, it was like, I just have this thought that. Heather Bonnefond: it doesn't matter whether you're 15, 50 black, white female male, if people like working with you And they like what you do, they employ, you might be idealistic, but that's how I feel. I did push through in a time when women weren't accepted, but I never had an attitude, like Heather Bonnefond: I'd never had the attitude. Heather Bonnefond: Well, you know, you poor me. I loved what I did. And I just Liked that situation with the live gig. You do, I did what it took, you know, Heather Bonnefond: and I tried to respect people on the way and I, I just really didn't have a lot of problem. Ya. I really Jan 'Yarn' Muths: to hear. Yeah. Good. But that's fantastic advice. So you basically, you know, you were managed to, to beat those people with your sound, with your skill yes. And, and prove your point that way. Heather Bonnefond: Yes. And if That's what it took To do that. My job was to do the best I could for the band that I was working with. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: And I couldn't do that with how they had. turned all the compressors down for front of house And they changed everything. I knew it wasn't gonna work. And that would also reflect badly on the band firstly, but also on me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. Okay. Wow. What was the biggest highlight of your professional sound career? The one most amazing moment. Heather Bonnefond: professor? I Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I Heather Bonnefond: end up doing front of house for Oh, gosh, that's this is hard. The ones that would impress people are different from the ones that I loved. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Talk about the ones you loved. Heather Bonnefond: I loved working for a gentleman by the name of Doug Parkinson. And I worked with him on and off. I was his tour manager as well on a few tours, but I just loved the musicianship, Tommy Emmanuel. Heather Bonnefond: Who's a wonderful guitar player who is internationally, has international acclaim at And over the last few years was in the band and his brother, and some amazing musicians. And I think personally, because I loved what they were doing, my, I just loved working in that band and with them, and was treated with so much respect. I did end up doing front house for Johnny Cash. So. Accidentally. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Tell me the story. I love Tony cash. Heather Bonnefond: Well, we had gone, up there. we were working as a support band, but I had just had a baby, so I was still breastfeeding. And so I had said to The guy who was doing the support in the support band, I'll do the, I'll do the gig, but I've got a baby. So you need to accommodate for that. Heather Bonnefond: So We went up there and it was at Rockhampton and they Were doing it outside. I think it was like a auditor oval. It was like a big OV on, so they had scaffolding built up and so front of house, used to be down the back, you know, right up on the top of the scaffolding. Heather Bonnefond: And so I ended Jan 'Yarn' Muths: up, Heather Bonnefond: we did the sound check. I did never actually saw Johnny Cash's. Auntie was there and I had a baby. And so I was up to climb up all the scaffolding to get up to the tower and. we Did the sound check came back. We did the gig. And found out that his, that Johnny Cash's front of house person. had got himself, Let's say sick from the night before and wasn't operating too well. Heather Bonnefond: And because I had seen I'd sat there for their sound check. One of the guys said to me, can you take over. Heather Bonnefond: he's he's not gonna be able to do this. Would you be able to do this? So I said So they never knew really that I never met Johnny casher. They never knew that I did, front of house for the concert, but the, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: but Heather Bonnefond: their sound guy was sitting behind me. I couldn't really talk to him cause he wasn't really conscious. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, wow. Heather Bonnefond: So that was, that was pretty amazing. Yeah, I mean, I ended up working with a lot of different bands. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. I think the Doug Parkinson thing was the big thing for me, cuz I just admired who he was. Okay. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: And I, you could name, drop other people, but for me personally, I loved it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Okay. So, and can we talk about sort of like the later years of, of your career? Can you talk about a couple of projects that you did sort of recently Heather Bonnefond: recently? Heather Bonnefond: Well, I haven't done a lot recently. The last thing that I did was. Heather Bonnefond: I worked in New York as an audio visual technician. Before you moved here, back to Australia and a friend of mine had asked me if I wanted to work in corporate. Now I, I kind of gave up a lot of doing a lot of sound cuz I went more to admin stuff. and I was looking after some songwriters and, so I and an artist. So I kind of went more into management as well. Cause I had two children by this time. yarn And that as much as I loved that lifestyle and loved what I did, it was getting a bit too difficult for. Heather Bonnefond: me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Understandably him. So Heather Bonnefond: I ended up managing a singer and a couple of songwriters. and I would try, I had used to go to MidAm for one of them. And but it was in France, you know, the song. Heather Bonnefond: So anyway, I did that I did, I became a tour manager and I did a tour with a band called Dallas county line. who Not many people heard of, but Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah, I have not. no. Tell us about 'em please. Heather Bonnefond: Oh, that was interesting. Dallas county line was The singer Heather Bonnefond: was a gentleman who had a company in, in the United States called health south. Heather Bonnefond: He had eight private jets Gulf stream jets. Oh wow. And he liked singing country music. So. A friend of mine who was an agent said to me, would you like to do this tour? I said, look, Heather Bonnefond: I can't at the moment he said, name your price. So I did. and I did this tour. So we had our own private jet golf stream, re led beat was the pilot Whoa. And we toured, we did Tamworth country music festival, but we did they were actually trying the first in year monitoring system. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What year was Heather Bonnefond: that? was in. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Roughly Heather Bonnefond: about 91 around about 91. So they wanted to try their, an ear monitoring. Heather Bonnefond: system and just tour Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That was a really fresh or young technology at that time. Yeah, probably with lots of problems. Yeah. How did that go? Heather Bonnefond: It was fine actually. I, didn't, I was really the tour manager on that job. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm-hmm Heather Bonnefond: and flight coordinator. . Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, Heather Bonnefond: So, yeah, I was lucky to have a lot of different opportunities to do different things in the music industry. Heather Bonnefond: And I looked after Todd hunter and Heather Bonnefond: his wife, Joanna pig, who wrote age of reason for John Farham. So they also had a studio he's from dragon and dragon. He wrote a lot of the songs for dragon. So They had a studio in Bondo road called Bondo road. So he used to work in their studio. They would do eight track demos, cuz that's how they wanted to do it. And they would send them up to the studio and I would work them and then take the songs to publishers. And at One stage, they did a song called only you and a Heather Bonnefond: friend of mine who was a songwriter, said, there's a young man called Keith urban. She said he's 19, Heather Bonnefond: that he's looking for a song. He was with ABC records. Heather Bonnefond: He was with the ranch. Then his band was called the ranch. So I listened to the song and I thought, okay, I wanted to, I wanted for him to be able to hear his voice on it. Cause it was sung, I think Joanna sang it. Heather Bonnefond: herself and I thought he's not he's young. He may not be able to hear that. So I got a, a guy by the name of friend by the name of Rick price. Who's a Very well known musician And I knew if he heard Rick's PR Rick's voice. He would take the song. So Rick did the demo and it was sent to Keith and. Heather Bonnefond: he took it on. So That was his first. I think that was his first single, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. So yeah. So I used to do some song well, they so what called song plugging. So I was, I used to try and find artists to match with songs. So they used to send me into the United States and over to France to MidAm the publishers would send me there just to learn about how. Heather Bonnefond: How how I could connect them with other writers. And So I worked with two songwriters, so the lady that I also, was her assistant, she had written Heather Bonnefond: patina, Reina, Rick price, and, Keith. Heather Bonnefond: She's now living in Nashville and yeah, so Jim and I had a publishing company called song shop publishing together. And Yeah. So that was my publishing. experience And world. So I used to, I was able to mix a lot of things. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I was Heather Bonnefond: able to be a tool manager. Manage studios, do front a house. I was able to in my career to change and that's what I like to do. Heather Bonnefond: And after a while I would just change it to something else and it, it worked for me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And it probably gave you more holistic picture, you know? Absolutely probably helps quite a lot, you know, even if you were a studio engineer to, to know the publishing steps and absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's really good. Heather Bonnefond: my last thing was, I got a job in, at JP Morgan chasing corporate, which Jan 'Yarn' Muths: JP Morgan? Yes. So I Heather Bonnefond: So I was in my fifties. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: it Heather Bonnefond: it's different it was very different. And I thought it was not going to be I was thinking it was a little bank and I would just setting up a laptop and a screen and the building that I was working in, Was 50 floors, and there was 30 technicians, AV technicians in the one. Heather Bonnefond: building. So, What had happened was that they had, they did a lot of corporate events. So for example, if they were, they were the major sponsors for like the us open, so if Serena Williams won, then we would have a big event presenting her with the check. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Hmm. In that building, Heather Bonnefond: in that building. in that building. Yeah. We had the 50th floor was a full. Heather Bonnefond: 360 view, pretty much of Manhattan. Heather Bonnefond: And They had a control room there, they had three or four control rooms. in the building. So used, used do a lot of events, So but my issue was when I got the job, I was 56. and I Hadn't done really hardly any digital work. Most of mine was analog And I'd done no video. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. That's a rough transition Heather Bonnefond: it was really rough. Yeah. But I told them, I, you know, said, can you operate a Polycom No, no, no. And I was thinking to myself, I just wanna save my friend's job. Who'd referred Because this is way out of my league. And they end up giving me the job and Heather Bonnefond: was a great job. I loved it. The team were amazing. And I loved working in as a team. member. And in fact, one of the things I'd like to say was I loved being an assistant. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: I loved being in that position where I could help you do the best job that you could do. So as an assistant engineer, I was really good to the point where all the clients that came in, I had a little book and I would write down what they had for tea coffee. Heather Bonnefond: Soon as they got there, even it was two years later, hopefully they didn't wanna change from coffee to tea. I would have the staff, I could anticipate the needs of the engineer and I love, I really did love being an assistant. engineer. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Fantastic. Wow. So that seems to be, I hope I'm not wrong with that, but, you know, it seems to be like, you know, the common theme of your career, that you were always really good with people and, you know, made them feel comfortable and sort of, you know, help others. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I Heather Bonnefond: I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I Jan 'Yarn' Muths: really the vibe I'm getting and you know, I think that's, that's phenomenal. That's definitely something that I'm taking out of this conversation today that it's really all about giving value to others. Yeah. That's really good. Heather Bonnefond: And in turn, I got that. I, I got that value. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's it's also rewarding. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Isn't that for, for oneself? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: I wouldn't have done it for so long. Had it not. been rewarding? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the transition from analog to digital? So you were basically right there at the breaking points. That must have been very uncomfortable, you Heather Bonnefond: well. Heather Bonnefond: I kind of stepped away around about that time. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: That's what I'm saying It's like I, I stepped away and went more in because I had children I went more into admin went more into tour managing publishing So then coming back to it was really hard. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I can imagine. So the industry moved on yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: There's, you know, new technologies and then the things that you knew may not work anymore, it didn't Heather Bonnefond: it didn't but it actually didn't, you know, thank goodness. My husband is who he is. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, yeah, of course. Heather Bonnefond: And it actually didn't take me as long as I thought it would. Yeah. of course. But doing, doing video was much more difficult for me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm. Can imagine. Heather Bonnefond: But I ended most of my job. I ended up being what they call an a two and an a two is someone that's in the room doing the, direct. So we would have like four or 500, hundred inch screens dropped down from the ceiling we would be doing webcasting. We, we were sending this out to maybe 140 countries. We would have a lot of high level people there. So I would be in the room directing. like Calling the shots for the control room. for the video operator and audio. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. So probably need a set of nerves for that. Heather Bonnefond: You couldn't make a mistake. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I guess your life sound skills probably came in really handy Heather Bonnefond: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the great thing about doing this work, there are lots of other opportunities that you can go into. And corporate was not something I thought I would do. And I have to be honest. I really liked it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's interesting. Heather Bonnefond: Yes. I think I liked I li I really like the challenge, this new completely new environment. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's a big change. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: It was a big change. And one of the things they asked me on the interview Heather Bonnefond: was I comfortable working with high level people. I said, yes, I guess, cuz I did feel comfortable. Cause I didn't think that those people or really any different to anybody. else Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's right? Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: no different. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: They're just another person. Mm. Heather Bonnefond: only trouble is if you're working with someone like Tony Blair, and he's got a $5,000 tie on you, and you're trying to laugh him up. Heather Bonnefond: and you clip the back of the tie and you Tear that back of his $5,000 tie. But Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But yeah, so that happened. Heather Bonnefond: not for me, but Tony Blair was one of the chairman of the bank and he came. in, So we used to work with bill gates and people like that on their meetings. And none of the guys wanted to take the job on cause they were like, no, it's too. it's too heavy. Heather Bonnefond: So yeah, it was I li I guess I love the pressure Jan 'Yarn' Muths: mm-hmm yeah. I can see that. Heather Bonnefond: I love Jan 'Yarn' Muths: the pressure. Yeah. The challenge Heather Bonnefond: of new things. Okay. So, but you're right. My life experience of having children being a regular mom. Being on the road with a, you know, maybe 12 guys sustaining my integrity of who I was as a person as well, And as a female and not getting bruised by a lot of situations or insulted, Do you have to have a little bit of a tough skin? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, of course. Heather Bonnefond: To go through, it. But I did have a great mix of a lot of different things and I'm really. grateful for that. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm, Heather Bonnefond: and that did that all culminated in me being more mature being, but being able to step into a very high level, high pressure job at a 56. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's impressive. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. And learn and, and new skill. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And succeed at it. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. And it was, it was great. I mean, I really loved I actually really loved. it. I surprised Because I'm a team person. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, yeah. Heather Bonnefond: There was 27 men and three women on this AV team. And the, Some of these guys had worked like with Michael Jackson with a lot of high level people and they had got a little bit older and went, you know, I'm gonna, and they weren't that old Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Right. Heather Bonnefond: But they just wanted to go. I just want to be at home. I want to have a stable job. I'm kind of done with the touring I'm done with all that kind of pressure. And I just wanna live in Manhattan. I just wanna be in my hometown. Yeah. So the three women they called the guys used to call us team estrogen Heather Bonnefond: One of the women was an electrician on, on the view. I think it was with Whoopi Goldberg so that we, we were just this mix of three amaz I think we're amazing women cuz we all loved each other and we got on really well and the guys were incredible. and Never were intimidated cuz we got such high level jobs. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: That's that's huge. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It is. Yeah. Nice. So geographically speaking your career sort of balanced between Australia Sydney, the east coast and also the United States. So you've moved foreign back more than once to remember that Heather Bonnefond: Yeah, probably twice. Really. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Were you born in the United States? No. No. You were born in Heather Bonnefond: Australia. Heather Bonnefond: I was born in Australia. Okay. Jim was born in the United States. Ah, I see. Yeah. but we met, we met in Sydney. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: We met in Sydney, Heather Bonnefond: then we moved to Nashville Jan 'Yarn' Muths: to Nashville. Yeah. And then also from there to New York or was there from Heather Bonnefond: Nashville back to here. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: Where Jim worked at SAE. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. Heather Bonnefond: And then. Heather Bonnefond: we moved to New York. Sorry. I'm a little vague, cuz it's like Heather Bonnefond: we went back and forwards a couple of times. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just so yeah. And then we moved back to Australia. eight years ago. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I would assume there are probably quite significant cultural difference in the, in the way people interact and, you know, conduct themselves or, you know, run pro projects. What are the most common stereotypes about Australians and Americans that you've found? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: If there are any. Heather Bonnefond: I Have to be honest and say that I think Americans are not as ageist as Australians are, and I hope that doesn't, offend anybody, but I found that actually that's kind of not true. let me take that all back. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: In New York, Heather Bonnefond: in New York, New York was a much more open place to accept people who were female older. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And Heather Bonnefond: I probably might not have. Heather Bonnefond: got as Well, as well, accepted doing the same job in Australia. I just don't think I would've gotten in. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Heather Bonnefond: But then again, in Nashville, when we moved to Nashville I was gonna go back into the music music industry, that, Heather Bonnefond: was in 96, 96. Yes. They were not comfortable with women working. in the music industry at all. Heather Bonnefond: Its very much the old boys club Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, right. Heather Bonnefond: It was very difficult. And I would've had to start all over again. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Do you still have ties to those places these days? Yes. And do you know any chance if that's still the case or has there been change? Heather Bonnefond: No, I definitely think there's been change Nashville. definitely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, that's good to hear. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: There's a lot more women working in the industry. on the technical side, audio, video, everything It, the world has had to open up to. that. To women doing what they do. I think sometimes the balance, just that energetic balance in, in studios and in environment, if there's all males to have a female is a good thing. Heather Bonnefond: And I think women, Jeff Beck said once that women think in stereo and men think in mono. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay, well, please explain that, that Heather Bonnefond: that I dunno if I can Heather Bonnefond: I think, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: what does that mean to you? Heather Bonnefond: that women are, can multitask a little easier. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. I can relate to that. Yep. Heather Bonnefond: Multitask a little easier. And that's sometimes not a great thing, but that's just, I think that's how we're. made. And I think that's what he was trying to say. He loved working in, he had shared with me once when he came to Australia, he loved working with women in a studio. He loved that. It wasn't just the, you know, having a female, he loved the energy of working with other women. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Yeah, Heather Bonnefond: because he said just having all that testosterone for months on end, he couldn't handle. But the balance of that female energy that brings into an environment is really. good. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I've experienced that myself as well. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Have you, you know, I, I definitely prefer about a balance, you know, 50, 50 balance it's seems to be the most productive balance. In, in my opinion, I have to say that as a male, I can only speak for myself, but I'm absolutely terrible at multitasking. Every time I try it, I mess things up. So I I'm really good at just focusing on one thing at a time, but multitasking in all honesty, I Heather Bonnefond: think also women are they can pick up certain nuances. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. Cause I think we are made to be able to, because if we have children, you know, your child might come up to you and be chatting and Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you can see a Heather Bonnefond: stranger to the site. A mom peripherally will be able to pick that stranger who may not be, feeling might not make her feel comfortable, where a dad will still be centered on this conversation like you and I are having. Heather Bonnefond: a woman will be picking up other little things. around. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: The surroundings. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: The surroundings. because That's kind of how we're supposed to be. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm-hmm Heather Bonnefond: And I think that works in the studio and creatively in this environment as well. Heather Bonnefond: because we're able to, well, this guy's not doing great today, where you might go. he's just not singing. he's just, off today. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. Heather Bonnefond: We might be able to pick up mm he's not doing well. What's going. on? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You've met a lot of musicians and, and artists in, in your life. And some became quite successful, but I'm sure there were plenty among who, who did not make it or did not cut it in the industry eventually. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Is that right to say? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Over the years, have you noticed certain similarities or certain common traits that the ones who do succeed, that they share? Is there anything that you could point your finger on? I know that's a difficult question, but. What comes to your mind? Heather Bonnefond: a combination. Heather Bonnefond: yarn. I think It's I think you have to have the passion first. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: have a, yeah. Cause Heather Bonnefond: the passion gives the drive. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: I will just use an example and I will use Keith. I had taken a writer to meet with Keith, a songwriter, and he lived in this tiny room. We had to step into the room to close the door, so we could close the door behind. And there was two writers songwriters that he was writing with and he was having a Shower in this tiny little bath And we all sitting on the crunched up on this bed, just waiting for him to come. You know, he was just Keith urban in the branch. He was just a MEO in Australia and hadn't had hardly any success at that time. Heather Bonnefond: And as we closed the door to come in, I looked at the back of the door, and it said six o'clock, seven till nine practice. And that was his. outline. And I can remember saying to Heather Bonnefond: this other writer, this guy's gonna be really successful one day Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. Right. Because he had a routine, Heather Bonnefond: he was serious. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: He was serious. He Was serious. Heather Bonnefond: serious. Heather Bonnefond: He was serious. Yeah. He had a routine and he was driven. and he loved what he did. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, so what you took from it is that he wasn't just drifting through the day randomly. He was structured. Yeah. And he wasn't Heather Bonnefond: waiting for it to happen. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. I mean, he was in Nashville for around nine or 10 years, just sleeping on people's floors Jan 'Yarn' Muths: before Heather Bonnefond: before he had any success. So he certainly has paid his. dues. Yeah, but that thing on the back of the door, I still can see it right now. I can still see it in my head, the list. and I thought yeah, this guy's. serious. But with that, there was also humility and a genuineness and he was present and a love of his mu love of what he did. Heather Bonnefond: So I think for me, that was the thing I went. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. This guy's gonna do really well. And I think that is for, I, I don't. re I mean, I'm not really sure. I think it's different for everybody. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah, of course, Heather Bonnefond: But yeah, I think passion, and drive, but I think the passion gives you the drive. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm-hmm okay. Heather Bonnefond: And sometimes you've gotta have a bit of a business head. Yes. Unfortunately, one of the things in managing I used to often see is that musicians were great CR creatively. Heather Bonnefond: but Often used to make not so good decisions. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. I think, you know, you and I, and probably all the listeners, we probably all know another musician who is very, very talented, but couldn't get a gig. Yes. In, in the, you know, hall next door, if their life dependent on it, who just stick to their room and never break out of it. Right. Heather Bonnefond: Right. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And you know, talent by itself and musical skill. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That doesn't seem to be all of it. There is more, and, you know, it's the interaction with people and getting things done Heather Bonnefond: and look at the look at the musicians who are not great. They're not amazing, but they have lifted themselves up to these great Heights because they, maybe they came from a media background or a business background or something. Heather Bonnefond: So they just knew this. They knew how to drive this engine to where they wanted it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm-hmm Heather Bonnefond: I mean, because I've had other businesses, you know, some, Sometimes I've said to people, do yourself a business plan. Or why it's a business plan, Heather Bonnefond: I said, let's not call it a business plan. Let's make it a life plan. Start from the end. Like they doing a business plan and say, what do you, what would you like to see yourself? Where would you like to see yourself? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. Heather Bonnefond: And because managing artists, if they don't have a vision, you can't give it to them. They have to have a vision. And then your job as a manager is to help them towards that vision. Heather Bonnefond: but if They don't have it. can't give it good Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. Oh, that is so true. That is some gold advice. Thank you so much. That is really good. I love that. We're sort of, you know, approaching the end. Yeah, yeah. That that's perfectly fine. But you know, as we sort of approach, you know, the end of, of this interview, give me some listening advice. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What are the most amazing musical records that you've come across lately? Can you give us any, any tips, anybody who you really recommend, maybe somebody who you produced in the past, or maybe some new music? Heather Bonnefond: I have a bit of a, a real mix bag. of music. I really like from a bank called the Petersons to Kao. I, yeah, I mean, I really love, I love a lot of, I mean, I am older, that's obvious, but I'm just so excited about music at the moment. Heather Bonnefond: and where it goes. Like I saw a movie last night called what women want. it's crazy Australian movie. And, but the music on it was incredible. So I took pictures of the the Phantoms. They're a great band. There's so much amazing music yarn. it? just blows me away. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's a great time to be alive musically. Yeah. Yeah, Heather Bonnefond: it really is. Heather Bonnefond: I saw an amazing guy down at Lennox the other day. He was Brazilian. And he was, he was like doing sampling and he was like playing everything. He was incredible. I'm like, look, look, what has happened. I think COVID has created, also created a lot of this. People are stuck at home. Have been and have had to really create. Yeah. Heather Bonnefond: Yeah. They've had to create something for themselves. So, Yeah. I mean, I like a lot of different kinds of music. I Try and not stay. I love a lot of older style, but I really like new stuff. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Good. Heather Bonnefond: kind of where I'm at. Fantastic. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: fantastic. Well, that's a great mix to have. Yeah. That's thank you so much for, you know, inviting me to your home for this interview. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You're welcome and sharing all this amazing wisdom and these phenomenal stories. That's really great. And rein insightful. So thank you so much. I really appreciate Heather Bonnefond: Been lovely. Thank you much. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Thank you. Been lovely. Thank you much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: This was Heather Bonafont on the production talk podcast. Thank you so much, Heather. I really enjoyed the conversation and I really wish all our listeners could have seen you in action when you speak there is just this aura of, of wisdom and, and joy for music around you. And that is just amazing to. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, thanks again for, for sharing all of this with us, it's quite an inspiring life story that you shared with us, and I'd like to encourage more women to join the Audi industry. It is definitely a place where we need you. And I really hope that this might be just a tiny pinch of encouragement for all the women who are considering a career in audio. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: If that's you and you are unsure. Please feel free to reach out to me for advice, help, contact, whatever I can do to help. I definitely support your case. And I really hope that we finally will make it to parity in the industry. Why not? Okay. If you want to reach out to me, you can reach me via my website. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mix artist.com.au. That's the place where I offer a mixed on services and help people getting their projects to the finish line. Just recently, I had my very first client from New York. So big shout out to Tom was a pleasure working with you. That was good. Fun. Yeah, if you. Want to contact me. You can do that even if it's just for a quick chat. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's no problem at all. Right there in your podcast. Application is a subscribe button. Please hit that button and also recommend this podcast series to all your friends. Give us a rating, give us a five star review that would really make the world of a difference to me. Thank you very much for listening. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's all for today. And by for now.