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4 April 2022

"He had some connections to some record labels, and they gave us the money to go over to the US and record with Sylvia " - Lucius Borich

About the 


Lucius Borich is the accomplished drummer of the Australian rock band COG. Known for his powerful and precise drumming, Borich contributes to COG's dynamic sound. With a career spanning years, he's been an integral part of their success, creating a rhythmic foundation that complements the band's progressive and alternative rock style.

The Production Talk Podcast - The modern way of producing music

In this episode:

  • Lucius early days as a drummer (starting as a toddler)

  • Lucius' choice of drums and cymbals

  • Is a good drum sound coming from the instrument or the drummer?

  • COG's early days, how Lucius started in California and Sydney

  • How COG produced their first EP 'Just Visiting, pt I and pt II' on a cheap Tascam cassette tape recorder

  • How COG's debut album 'The New Normal' was produced in the US by Sylvia Massey

  • How to keep the right mindset when feeling under pressure or frustrated in the studio

  • COG's plans for the future


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Extra Content:

Lucius Borich (COG), playing some casual beats after the interview. Note how he uses his left and right hand interchangeably.

Contact the podcast host Jan 'Yarn' Muths at

Disclaimer: The Production Talk Podcast is independent of (and not related to) my teaching responsibilities at SAE.


Jan 'Yarn' Muths or, in the studio


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Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome to the Production Talk podcast with me, Yarn, of In this podcast series, we celebrate the modern way of producing music. We want to talk about all things related to songwriting, recording at home and music production. So, if you produce your music at home, this is the place to be. Please subscribe and recommend this podcast to all your friends. This is the production talk podcast episode 37. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Thank you for being here with me today. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the land that this conversation is recorded on, the Arakwal people of the Bundjalung nation. And I'd like to pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's a special day to have Lucius Borich with me from the band COG. And just before we get into this conversation, Lucius, it's our second attempt of recording this interview. The last one was a huge failure due to technical issues on my end. So thank you for making the time again. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, absolutely. We're here, we're here now. So past is the past and here we are. So it's all good. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent. We're rolling. Everything is tested. So we're good to go look. Um, first I would love to hear a bit more about your history and how you decided, you know, as I guess, a young bloke to become a musician, what was your inspiration Uh, how come you're not working in a bank or Lucius Borich (COG): yeah. Right. Working in a bank. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: how did you become a musician? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. Um, well, I'm not good at math, so I don't think I would have been good in a bank, but I use maths in a different way and that's on the drum kit and cause it's all obviously time. So I think that, um, Uh, you know, not having a good, a good, uh, mathematical brain writing it down and understanding equations and stuff like that. Lucius Borich (COG): For some reason I can do it in rhythm and things like that. So, I mean, I grew up with a, uh, a musical family, so my uncle he's, uh, uh, he's not with us anymore, uh, rest his soul. And he only, he passed probably two years ago now. Um, yeah, Doug Parkinson, a fantastic soul singer. And he was like, you know, my second father pretty much, um, you know, I grew up with him and I played with him, uh, did the buddy Holly theater show with him. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and my father is a, is a blues rock guitarist. So I've played with him off and on pretty much my whole life. So I was born into a musical family and yeah, and, and I, I, that was kind of like what was normal. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Um, Lucius Borich (COG): And that was, it seemed to be exciting. Um, the vibe of music always around was always nourishing, you know, for, for, for us young kids. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, so yeah, it was, it was basically, that was the intro, I guess. And, um, from there it was just a exploration, you know, and grabbing the Baton, so to speak the musical Baton, running with it and see what could happen. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. And, uh, who was inspiring you to become a drummer? What, why didn't you end up being a guitar player like like a dad? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. Um, I think a couple obvious things, I think when kids are young, so I've, I've got photographs of me behind a drum kit when I was three. So, um, I've got sticks and I've got a, a pretty much scaled down drum kit. Like my dad's drummers at the time, Keith Barber, great Australian drummer. Lucius Borich (COG): I learned a lot from him and Johnny, Dick. He played a lot of, um, uh, John Paul Young stuff, um, and stuff like that. And he's a great drummer as well. And they basically created a small, tiny prototype little drum kit. And you know, that I'm sitting behind there, I've got the sticks in the hand. I'm, I'm, I'm banging away and hitting things. Lucius Borich (COG): And I think obviously kids, you know, at that age three or four can pick up sticks and they can hit things. So it's not like picking up a violin and, you know, trying to make a good sound out of it, you know? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So. Lucius Borich (COG): I don't know whether, I mean, I guess that would have been back in the day would have been fun to do that as a young child, but they were saying that I was playing for four time at, when I was around three and my dad had a tape, unfortunately. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. A tape, um, cassette that got lost, unfortunately, but that was me jamming with him for four time when I was around three or four. So I don't know. Yeah. I don't know why I can't answer that in a spark of, of that question to a degree, but I do remember feeling, um, very strongly in, in myself. That's what I was here to do. Lucius Borich (COG): And there was going to be, you know, everything else has just everything else. And that was the path that I was going to have to chase and follow for some reason, you know? And, and I really understood that at an early age, funnily enough, you know, 6, 7, 9, even times when I didn't have a drum kit, I just knew that for some reason I was going to be playing drums and I was going to be moving forward with, with rhythm. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. So they were kind of like the spark, I guess, those drummers that, um, you know, just helped put the sticks in my hand, built the drum kit. Um, and then from there it was kind of, you know, playing on pillows and cushions. And my mum used to, um, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: to, Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, when she was doing the dishes or anything like that, she put the pots and pans on the floor, give me some chopsticks and, you know, just have me sit on the ground with my nappy on and just parently, you know, just hitting things with. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. So there was a really early birth there, funnily enough. And I guess, you know, being in the womb, you know, music all around, there was probably some vibrational, you know, leakage in and, and I picked up on it and resonated with it, you know? So yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Cool. Well, I'm not surprised that you're such an amazing drummer today. If you started at that age, Lucius Borich (COG): thank you. Yeah. It's been a lot of work. It's definitely, you know, it's been a lot of work put into trying to become a. I guess reach your potential, you know? Um, yeah, you, you never feel like you're where you want to be, but you're on that journey of always trying to strive to somewhat become better than you are, or just change, you know, or just change and morph into a different version of yourself as applier. Lucius Borich (COG): And that is the evolution of becoming something quite different than you were maybe 10 or 15 years before. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, Okay. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's maybe just a fast forward into, into the present time. Um, we are surrounded here by drums in your studio. There's, uh, you know, cases everywhere and there's a beautiful kit set up right next to us. Can you talk about your gear and you know, what you prefer shells are and what's your sound? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What's your unique, uh, choice of instruments? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, my, at the moment, I'm playing DW drums that are out of America and I've been playing those for. Probably 20 odd years before that I had a beautiful Gretsch kit, um, which was a lovely, um, sounding drum kit, which actually, um, unfortunately got trashed in a, in a, um, an accident that was on its way to a gig and the, um, yeah, the radio who was driving the truck, he, um, had a little bit too much of something and fell asleep and rolled the van. Lucius Borich (COG): So you know, that that kid got trashed, but I had insurance on that kit, so I went to get another one. Um, and this was, I must've been about 22 at this stage, so that would have been quite early nineties. And, um, they said, oh look, we, we're not, we haven't gotten any Gretsch kits, but we got these new things called DW kits. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, they sound pretty similar and, and they're a good make and all the rest of it. So I kind of transitioned over, took the insurance, marrying the money. And then I got that, um, my first DW kit, which was a Birch small lugs black kit, um, which was a beautiful sounding kit Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Ah, they socked, ridiculously amazing the DW Lucius Borich (COG): really, really good. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, You know, I had that one for a long time that, that drum kit before then growing up, starting, you know, I went through a phase of, um, you know, using Tama, um, kind of, you know, Royal star Tamas and a couple of pill kits. Um, you know, just kind of sussing out what I thought was good at what that, at that stage, it didn't really matter too much. Lucius Borich (COG): Although the badge was kind of cool. If it aligned with some of the drummers I liked, you know, I'm playing a similar kit to Stuart Copeland or, you know, or whatever. So that was pretty cool. Um, but yeah, moving on basically DW for, you know, she's must be around 30 ideas now, I'd say. And, um, that black kit, which, which I got, I ended up selling that I'm auctioning that off actually. Lucius Borich (COG): Cause it was quite a hard period of time where financially it wasn't doing too well. So, um, had to auction that one off and that one kind of left. You know, um, which yeah, one of my loves lift me and, and moved on and yeah. As someone who actually the person who bought it has always been quite, um, quite nice about, well, if you ever need a back, you know, you know Jan 'Yarn' Muths: know? Lucius Borich (COG): yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, maybe you could. Yeah. But, um, from there at the moment, I've had quite a few DW kits, uh, since that one, um, different, you know, shells, different sizes. And at the moment I'm running a mahogany, um, wouldn't kit basically, which is a nice, uh, let's say more warmer. You could say more warmer than the Birch and, and the kids quite big of, of over time, um, added to it. Lucius Borich (COG): So the one we're looking at at the most. Which is quite different for me. And I've only kind of gotten these sizes in the last two years because I'm doing a faith, no more cover bands. So I've really wanted to bring in that sound, um, that the drummer, um, from faith in the more has, which is the big Tom's Mike here. Lucius Borich (COG): So, um, great big, you know, sort of 13 rack Tom, um, and a 14 rack Tom and a 1624 inch kick drum. Um, and then the COG drum kit is, is kind of like an add on to that. So I've got, you know, my 10, uh, 12 and what am I running? I'm running a 10, 13, 15 floor time, 18 floor Tom, and a 22 inch by 14 kick drum. So that's all kind of one. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, kit, you could say, but you can divvy it up and you can, you know, you can use it in different ways for Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You can scale it basically. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Lucius Borich (COG): you've got going on or whatever gig you've got going on. So that, and I've also got a PDP, um, which are made by DW, which are a little bit more of their cheaper kits, but they sound fantastic. Lucius Borich (COG): And I use those quite a lot, even in the studio wooden hoops, which is different than the, you know, the, the, um, steel hoops we have. Um, so yeah, it's, I, haven't got too many kits at the moment, but I've got a few snares. I'm running some Zildjian cymbals, which I've been with them for quite a long time. So. Lucius Borich (COG): Quite a mix-match of different symbols there, um, for different situations, you know, dark, Ks, um, consent to know polls, which are the more jazzy style or the , which are quite dry. And they're really great sounding. Um, but then I've got some A's, uh, a customs. So there's, there's uh, yeah, there's just, uh, uh, you know, a lot of nice mixture there, so I can really change it up when I want for different situations. Lucius Borich (COG): And I really noticed a difference. And when I'm recording, I obviously noticed the difference too. So interchanging those out, um, is, is really, um, worth having a lot of those different varieties. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, and, and in your experience, you know, how much of a, of a great some drum sound comes out of the instrument and how much comes out of the playing or what's the balance and in your opinion? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, great question. Um, I've seen fantastic dramas plague, some kits that, you know, they're not the best, but they just make it sound great. You know, so, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: seen that many Lucius Borich (COG): yeah. It's an interesting Jan 'Yarn' Muths: amazing musicians on a beaten up or a drum set, and it still sounds phenomenal Lucius Borich (COG): that's right, because I think over time, drummers learn experience, drummers, learn how to pull the science, the sound, the tone, and to, you know, and what they're working with, um, to make it sound good, you know, and, and where they place the sticks on the head, um, what heads they use with the drums, um, that can have a bit of a, um, an influence there, but yeah, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: it's. Lucius Borich (COG): it's. You know, I think that the set, the kit is obviously secondary. I think, you know, to the player, um, if a good, a good player can make an average drum kit sound really good, you know, so, yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay, cool. Um, and when you work life and in the studio, um, do you have preferred microphone choices or ways to make up your drums for, for, for your sound? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. I, I definitely, I remember the first time the Sennheisers, um, you know, for two ones, I heard those for the first time when I was 16, 17 in the studio when I'm a recorded for the first time. I, and I did interchange the Mike's out. So, and I really noticed the difference when they did that. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And I thought Lucius Borich (COG): Uh, at a young age at that age, I was like, well, those ones sounded a lot better. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, those four, two ones. And, you know, I actually, um, from that experience is why I purchase, you know, my four to ones for the times that I have now, you know, you can tweak the, the ratio and I'm for the bottom end and all that stuff too, which is pretty cool on the mic. Um, and I've, you know, I've tried different things on kick drum. Lucius Borich (COG): And, and snares and all sorts of things. I mean, you know, the 50 sevens are obviously quite a go-to and a standard on the snare and I find them pretty robust. Um, so yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll use those live of used 600 fours, um, on the Toms. Um, they seem pretty, you know, they get out there, they're small, like, you know, they're out of the way, they they're quick and easy to take off and on. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, I like like that aspect and, you know, they've got a lot of. You know, they take a lot of punch, which, which is good. You can hit this. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And The four, two ones are just not made for life, you know, they're just way too bulky. And that terrible clip they have, that's a huge failure in design, you know, who came up with that clip? Lucius Borich (COG): I know. And it's, it's funny. I think I saw some, someone online who was doing like a, a mic, um, you know, swap out or a shootout or whatever they call with different microphones and, you know, the four to ones and it was here. Lucius Borich (COG): We are, you know, 20, 22 or maybe two years ago or something like that. And, um, and then same thing. It's still got the clip, you know, that, that clip where you you've dropped the mic quite a few times, I've been, you know, um, definitely a victim of. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that Lucius Borich (COG): And just falling out, you know what I mean? Um, and I don't know why they don't change it over, but then there could be a real valid reason that they don't, whether it's, you know, price wise or economically, or, you know, or you've got a four to one and they're a great special mic. Lucius Borich (COG): Don't drop the mic, be mindful when you're using it. You know, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I've actually once been to the Sennheiser factory in Germany, in a town called Vader mark and we got the grand tour of the facilities. And, you know, the, These microphones were designed I want to say in the sixties, but I'm not entirely sure on the year. And they still haven't changed the design deliberately They don't change a thing. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: They are still hand assembled, assembled in Germany. Hence the price or the new microphones are obviously built by robots these days, but those ones that are still untouched. So that's their philosophy, I guess. But they're amazing. microphones. I love them Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. And I also use road a lot in the studio, Australian, um, brand. Yep. And I, two of their facility in Australia when I hooked up with them quite a few years ago and they were gracious enough to kind of take me on board, give me a whole bunch of mikes. Lucius Borich (COG): They knew I was getting into studio production. Um, and you know, drum going to need quite a few mikes. Cause obviously you've got Toms and, you know, snares and overheads and rooms and all the rest of it. So they really kidded me out with a lot of stuff, which was great. And I I've been using Rode mikes for quite a long time and I really loved the new, um, the ribbons they've got NTRs yeah, they're fantastic. Lucius Borich (COG): You Jan 'Yarn' Muths: worked with them many times and I love them to bits. They're really Lucius Borich (COG): yeah, really, really nice. So I use those quite a lot. Um, yeah. And I've just got a mixture of different mikes from, from road, you know, which, which really, um, work really well. Yeah. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Cool. Nice one. Say if it's okay with you, I'd like to switch the subject a little bit. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and talk about your band COG, usually successful band, you know, love the music phenomenal stuff. and Can you give us a brief rundown of of how the band started and how you made the first steps into becoming a, in a professional musicians? and gaining traction in the industry? Tell us about the early days. Lucius Borich (COG): the early days. Um, well, the guitarists and myself Flynn, um, we went to school together, so, um, we grew up in a surf skate culture in Bondai in Sydney, Australia, and, um, We're in a previous band before COG called the hanging tree, which was a, kind of like a stoner, you know, punk heavy metal type of, uh, you know, band. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and we did that for about four years and we had some success with that in the underground scene. It was a great one of my, you know, um, favorite all-time records I've ever played on really. Um, it was done on two inch tape. Um, it was sounded fantastic. No click tracks, you know, just roar as great sounding record. Lucius Borich (COG): And it was just as all that. You know, I guess stoner rock music Kayas and food, men shoe, and all those type of bands were kind of rearing their monster magnet and they'll rearing their heads a bit. So that was a bit of that era with that. And then that band disbanded for a while. And, um, I was in a bit of a, a rut didn't know what to do. Lucius Borich (COG): I was probably 25, 26 at the time, you know, looking for some type of direction where to go. Um, I knew I wanted to play original music. Um, I'd love to playing, you know, some cover stuff. I love playing with other artists, but I really wanted to, you know, create my own, I guess, band and sound, um, you know, using, utilizing the guitar and songs that I'd written and things like that. Lucius Borich (COG): So I made a decision to leave Australia, uh, around that time and went to and landed in America in, in, in LA. And, um, At the time I left my partner and, you know, just saved up as much as I could. And I went over there and I had a few friends over there that were musicians, and I thought maybe I might hook up with them, but it was really just to get away from Australia. Lucius Borich (COG): I'd been playing in Australia, touring for 15 ideas, um, and having some success with, you know, some other bands as well. Juice was another band I still work with at the moment. That was my first kind of professional gigging band who was signed to a label. We did quite well. Um, did a lot of major tours within access and who to gurus and some and Radiohead. Lucius Borich (COG): And, and that was a great band, young band. We were signed around 2021, um, that disbanded for a while. Or I left that one for a while and I'm just jumping forward into America. Um, I just sat down and started writing songs and, uh, Trying to come up with a style that I liked and a sound that I liked. I really liked the heavy style of, uh, you know, your bands like Soundgarden and helmet, um, tool and, and Kayas and things like that. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, I liked my Prague music, you know, very much because that was an early influence in my life. You know, I went through a big stage of lots of problem. You have, you might have each new orchestra and king Crimson and things like that, of that nature, weather report and stuff. So Genesis of course, my favorite prog band. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and I wanted something that was similar, you know, I wanted to, you know, have that Prague element that have some of the heavy style guitarists, such as, you know, the, you know, your ACD seas or your Metallica's or your helmets or your, you know, um, You know, those type of bands, you know, so, but I want to dynamics and I want to dynamics like pink, Florida, Jeff Buckley. Lucius Borich (COG): Okay. So I wanted those kinds of dynamics in the sound and Flynn. Um, the guitarist in Corgan and the singer in Kogan rider in COG, um, as well as his brother, Luke, um, before Luke joined the band, it was Flynn. Um, I guess he was in a similar situation, but he was back in Australia and he was writing some of his own stuff. Lucius Borich (COG): At that point in time, I was in America, you know, I think he, eight months went past, we connected on the phone. How you going? What are you up to? Oh, I'm writing this, I'm writing that we were sending tapes to each other backwards and forth. And I said, well, I don't think I want to come home to Australia. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, I think I've done enough of touring and, you know, trying to do bands in Australia. And so I really want to start something here. So I'm really going to ground something here, as best as I can. And, uh, he was all for it in terms of like packing up and okay, I'll do the same thing. Maybe we should hook up together, you know? Lucius Borich (COG): So, um, he got motivated, he sold his gear he's he's guitars and, and some more, some of his guitars, these amps and stuff like that, and saved up, worked his butt off to, um, you know, get a chunk of money to come over. Meanwhile, I was over there, right. You know, meeting people, you know, going to studios, going to venues, trying to hustle and bustle coming up with songs. Lucius Borich (COG): And, uh, unfortunately after about eight months or so, I, I ran out of money and I lost my job, got fired from the job that I was doing, which was just a kitchen hand. You know, a lot of the real grubby crappy work in a, in a pub on sunset strip, or it's not a pardon, but it's a club, um, on sunset strip. And, um, I lost that job and I was going down fast and I couldn't find another job and my visa was running out. Lucius Borich (COG): So I didn't want to have the heart to tell Flynn either like, you know, and I thought, nah, something will come up, you know? Um, and he was, you know, saving. So it was like, I got to that point, it was like, oh, I'm going to have to go home with my tail between my legs. You know, like I'm not going to be able to stay here. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, but I didn't have the heart to tell Flynn at that point, because I thought some miracle might happen and I might be able to stay. But anyway, I had to go back to Australia. Um, and I turned up on the doorstep of Flynn's house. He's looked at me and going, what the hell are you doing? I was supposed to be coming over in like three weeks. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, I said, mate, you know, I've just, I've ran out of money, visa, um, ended and all the rest of it. And so we, we just started in Sydney, you know, yet again. Um, so we, we basically got together, you know, a couple of times a week in his sunroom and just, you know, at that point in time, I was, had a lot of risks and goods and, um, you know, stuff. Lucius Borich (COG): And so did he, and we just started putting it together and formulating and you know, making sure the sound was, was how we wanted it to be dynamically. And it didn't matter about the length we weren't trying. Pop songs or anything like that. It was just, we were purely going off a feeling of, of how we felt with the music. Lucius Borich (COG): And, you know, I think we got to a point where we tried to, um, you know, find a singer, cause it was just the two of us and he wasn't a singer at this stage. Um, so it was just guitars and drums and we'd go into a rehearsal room, we'd set up, we record the demos and bits and pieces like that. And we just try and audition people to, to create another band. Lucius Borich (COG): I guess couldn't find any singers. Um, couldn't find really any bass players. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, Lucius Borich (COG): you know, we got to a point where we recorded, um, our demos. So 10 songs, uh, pretty much finished up, um, a prototype of like an album of what we wanted to, you know, produce and put out. And it was meant to, you know, go to the record labels and go, Hey, this is what we want to reproduce. Lucius Borich (COG): And that. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that point, Lucius Borich (COG): You know, Flynn started going, well, I'm going to have a sing on it. You know, w w we can't find a singer. So he, uh, started twiddling around with that coming up with ideas, which was sounding pretty cool. And then we did come across a singer, um, who was pretty good actually, and we thought, great, we've got another piece of the puzzle. Lucius Borich (COG): So, um, he came in for a watch, um, Justin Carter, who's, who's a good singer piano player, guitarist himself, and he'd just come out out of acting school at nighter. And he, but he wanted to do music, you know, and put his acting career to the side. Anyway, we messed around for, I don't know, it must've been a good six to eight months and he, he contributed some lyrics and melodies and whatnot to some of the early called tracks, um, on the album, just visiting that we did. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, unfortunately he, he pulled, we actually ended up doing a few gigs with him. Um, And we w he pulled out unfortunately and said, look, I want to pursue my acting career. And as, as he went to do that, he actually got a call from a band called vast, which you might've heard of, which were quite a big underground band, um, that had some great songs. Lucius Borich (COG): John Crosby, I think, um, Cosby, I think this one way you say second name, he's one of my favorite writers, but vast is one of my favorite bands. Like I really love them. Um, so he went off and joined that band. So we were left without a singer again. So Flinders went bugger, this I'm going to start singing. Lucius Borich (COG): And I was at this stage, we'd actually auditioned Luke, which is Flynn's brother to play bass. I'd already done a lot of the bass work on the songs. Um, we couldn't find a place bass player, but we recorded the drums and the guitars. So I took it home, um, and basically played bass on the whole thing as well. Lucius Borich (COG): That was sounding okay. Um, and then Flynn put the vocals down and that was sounding pretty good. And I was like, amazed. I was like, wow, you can. I've never seen you sing and play at the same time and these kind of rhythms and guitars that you've got going on. How are you going to do this? You know? So he practiced his ass off, you know, I think I went over to bring it over to his garage once. Lucius Borich (COG): And there was a broom with a microphone tape to the broom, which was attached to a chair, maybe taped. And he was, had his pedal board down there and he just, he was just, yeah, just like absolutely practicing to try and learn how to sing and play at the same time, because there was complicated rhythms and, you know, chords and pedal changes, but he had to sing as well. Lucius Borich (COG): So he, you know, he was going, you know, very hard getting that together. And then at that time we auditioned Luke who was in another band, which is he's 10 years younger than us. So Flynn's brother and, um, he. Um, he was, was playing in a band called tax at the time, which I used to play bass in for a while. Lucius Borich (COG): So it's a little bit of switching in and out and things like that, but he, he took the lead in, um, playing bass for that band for a while. And, um, and then obviously the opportunity for him to kind of play with us as well, came up and I couldn't believe how far he'd come on. The bass. He was playing fantastic. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, he learned the songs, he just nailed the 10 songs that we so all my bass parts pretty much. Um, he just learnt those and was fantastic at it. And so we had the nucleus of, of three people, um, jelling, well, playing the songs as they were predominantly instrumental and Flynn was, you know, um, you know, ever. Lucius Borich (COG): Uh, ever so putting lyrics and melodies and whatever else on them, and then we'd go and play live and we'd, we'd play 50% of the show instrumental. And then the other 50% Flynn would sing. And, you know, the ones who practiced and got down, you know, finally was confident enough to, to get up there and sing and play. Lucius Borich (COG): We'd do we'd we'd do them. So we. Maybe two or three years, you know, messing around in Sydney at different venues that would have us and have us play or without a band supporting other bands and slowly but surely just, you know, building our sound, um, our, our style and, um, getting better as players and becoming more of a unit as a, as a band. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and that's when we kind of, um, I guess we, we were, we were like, yeah, I think we've got what we need. We don't need any more, um, in terms of players, um, we're a three-piece and we just forged ahead with that basically. And, um, that demo that we did, which was a 10 track, uh, demo, which we became just visiting the, the EPS that we released and then an album, we put it into an album, cause it was always meant to be an album. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, we actually ended up using. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that Lucius Borich (COG): As, you know, the album to release to the public because no label would sign us, no label, you know, wanted to know about us. And, you know, we were sending it round and all the rest of it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Um, how was that recorded? Lucius Borich (COG): yeah. Well, it was recorded in a room, not so much bigger than this, that we're, we're sitting in now. Lucius Borich (COG): So quite a, you know, like a standard row. Yeah, no, it was just a standard rehearsal room. So it was very, it was very, quite dead at, it was at Tom stage door Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And somebody had a laptop with an audio interface or what was it? That Lucius Borich (COG): didn't have a laptop at that Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Okay. Lucius Borich (COG): We had a ditch now, what do we have? We had a test cam 6, 8, 8. Is that the one's task had 12? Yes. Lucius Borich (COG): Uh, as a 12 track, it's 12 track Tascam 6, 8. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: recorder. Yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): TDK cassette tapes, right? Yeah. So it w it was like, it was the TDK cassette tapes. So, I mean, what is that in inch? It's like, it's like co I don't know, what is it like? It's just a normal cassette tape, so you could get Jan 'Yarn' Muths: not what we would consider a decent recording gear today, anymore. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's you know, it's super basic and that's. how we attract. Lucius Borich (COG): that's. Yeah. And literally the drums are in the corner with 50 eights, one on the cake, one on the snare, two overheads. That was it. And, um, that was the drum sound. All right. And then once the drums would do. We added the guitars and used, I think we used our 50 sevens and just recorded the guitars on that. Lucius Borich (COG): So we had the beds, but it was all basically like, well, this is just a demo, you know? So we're not going to put too much into it. It's all about song structure. It's all about the songs. We're not worried too much about the sound or anything like that. But then we got to that point where we're going, oh, well, no, one's going to give us a deal or give us some money to, to produce this properly. Lucius Borich (COG): How can we take this, make it better, keep developing it and turning it into, you know, something we can sell to the public and make a musical statement with the songs that we love. Um, and we think are pretty cool. So we went to another studio, um, and then we use the, uh, Yamaha. Oh, 2 0 2 R I think it was a guy in Bondai junction in Sydney who had a little local studio in the bottom of his mom's house. Lucius Borich (COG): And we laid down the vocal. I'd already put the base down in the back garage of my father's house on the Tascam 6, 8, 8. Um, and I tried many different bases and things like that. And because we're tuned to C tuning, that's where I had a bit of trouble trying to find the bass, right. Bass guitar that had the right tone and would, you know, feel right and just sound right within the music. Lucius Borich (COG): And so I must've gone through like six or seven bass guitars, um, trying to, you know, find that. And I ended up with a sparring, a specter, um, from a mate of mine. Who's a great bass player, Harry, Bruce, who I played with, he plays with my father play with Renee Geyer, Leo Sayer, you know, you know what I mean? Lucius Borich (COG): It's been like an Australian go to rock and soul funk and blues bass player for, I don't know, 50 odd years. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, Lucius Borich (COG): So yeah, he's, you know, he's the real deal. And then he had one of those bases. So. That based off him, I'm sure it was him mentioning him in a way is cool in this podcast anyway, because he's, he's a great bass player. Lucius Borich (COG): But, um, so I took that and that worked, it sounded great. It held the tension for the C tuning and all the rest of it. So, um, from that point after we laid the vocals down in Bondo junction did all the backing vocals and whatever overlays we needed to mix it. So then we found a guy who was getting into production with pro tools and all this type of stuff. Lucius Borich (COG): So then it was dumping it into digital recording. So from that, that's where we mixed it, um, in a, in a studio in his house and we ended up mixing it twice because you know, not knowing. You know, um, and it's tends to, well, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: where you're going to Lucius Borich (COG): too much bottom end, you know, we wanted it to be thick in the bottom end and, you know, we were just, I guess we were starting out to some degree and, you know, we really didn't have much, um, you know, professional people around us at that time. Lucius Borich (COG): And you know, for me, I'd always wanted to get into engineering and production or something down the track. I knew I was going to want to do, which was producing engineering, mixing, and recording. But at that stage it was, it was all, you know, exploration, whatnot. And we, we took it home and I remember putting it on a stereo and just going the bottom end is just blowing out. Lucius Borich (COG): Cause those, then it stands. They just don't hold much bottom man. So we had to mix it again. So we went back and you know, if you listen to that, Those 10 tracks. There's quite a lot in there and they're quite lengthy songs. They're not three minutes song. So it took a while once again to mix that whole phone thing. Lucius Borich (COG): And then we had, um, basically, you know, done and finished. We got a mastered 3 0 1 in Sydney, and then that was, um, it was finished as a, as an album we thought, well, we're just going to release that, you know, and we'll play gigs and we'll just sell it at gigs. And then we ran into a guy called Owen, Orford her at a booking agency. Lucius Borich (COG): And he was, you know, had silver chair and a couple other big acts. And he loved the band, loved the music and wanted to book us as a, as a, as an act. And he loved the, the APS. Well, he, he loved the music. We hadn't put it into EPS yet. We just had like a five track. I think it was a five track kind of sell it at gigs type of a thing. Lucius Borich (COG): But his, um, uh, his wisdom was like, we'll put it into two split. Five tracks each, put it into two EPS, give it some life, a bit of lifespan and, um, I'll start booking you and let's see what happens. So that was like a bit of the, kind of the history of, of kind of getting together, growing up riding and getting it to at least that stage where that was before we got signed to a label. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It really, it sounds like you had your fair share of obstacles to overcome. there. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Definitely. It was, Lucius Borich (COG): there was so much, um, in terms of, yeah, and me, you know, obviously, you know, musos young musos and yeah. Money is always one of those hard things. You've got to have a job you've got to pay for other things, and you're always trying to funnel it back into, into the band in whatever way you could. Lucius Borich (COG): But, um, yeah, we finally got to a point where, uh, we had a label that, you know, wanted to help us out, but that was actually before we, we, we met a guy and I should tell this story quickly that, you know, while we were playing. And while Owen offered was booking us and we were doing gigs, we're doing more broader gigs. Lucius Borich (COG): Now we were getting out of Newcastle and Woolongong and Canberra and other places and playing with bands like the test Eagles and other great Australian young bands that were doing well. I mean, in the, in the underground scene. And, um, I, we, we just started writing another album basically after that. So, and that was, um, to be the new normal, which is what we ended up releasing as an album on a label. Lucius Borich (COG): But before that we released an AP. Um, and we did that because we were doing a residency in Sydney, uh, in, uh, every Wednesday night. And we, we thought we'll, we'll, we'll do a residency for three or four weeks. We'll see how it goes. But this ended up going for three, four months. And, um, every Wednesday night, and it became a thing called the blueprint sessions, which every Wednesday night community, local bands would come down and, and we headline, but we just created a culture. Lucius Borich (COG): We created a community, we created a place where people would gather on, on Wednesday nights, you know, and that was a fantastic part of the development of, and, and getting it sounding kind of cool having a crowd there to play too as well. Um, and we met her, we met a guy called Sean Boucher, who, um, he said, look, I've got a home studio, if you ever need to record anything, let me know. Lucius Borich (COG): And at that point in time, Flynn came up with an idea to. And I think also Alan was saying the music's awesome. It's great. But you know, maybe something a bit more straight ahead, like a dance, something a bit more straight forward for pulse. Um, and Flynn came up with the idea and loved a band called left-field, which is a, uh, basically electronic band, um, out of Europe. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, think they're out of the UK or out of England, predominantly, um, home base, I think. And they had a song called open up, which is a great song. We used to listen to that album leftism all the time and open up the track with Johnny Leiden, from the sex pistols, he was singing on it. So we did a cover version of that, but did it as a rock band and we got. Lucius Borich (COG): Friend who became a friend of the band, Sean Boucher had the home studio and he goes, I'll record the song, you know, you know, and we were like, fantastic, awesome. Well, let's go to your studio, you know, and we rocked up at the studio to do this, this song and all, you know, amped up, you know, gear in the back and we're going to a studio. Lucius Borich (COG): And I think he sold it to us in a way where my vision of what we were going to was completely different through the reality of what it was because we walked in there and it was a bit. It was like, it wasn't as big as the rehearsal room we'd used for the, you know, it was just basically a bedroom and there was dog shit in the corner. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, you're kidding me. No seriously. You're right. Lucius Borich (COG): other, he had this tiny little booth off to the side, which was the, which was the control room, which he had his computer, but we heard some of his stuff from other bands he was doing. And that sounded great. It sounded really good. So it was, it was quite interesting that what he was producing, mixing and, um, putting out there, you know, you would think, and either visualizing where that possibly came from and what studio was, nothing of the sort of, well, actually what it was, you know, bedroom with dog shit in the corner, but he was making it sound great. Lucius Borich (COG): And he was a real. He was an interesting guy because he was doing things and he was quite alternative and alternative thinking. And, and, you know, we were having great conversations, you know, about certain aspects of life and the nature of reality. And, and, you know, some of these things we were pondering on within the music too, you know, lyrically, um, and he was doing things like recording with crystals, you know, like he'd put a crystal in front of the mic and, you know, it would, it would bounce off the crystal and it would get into the mic and that would add a new frequency or a new tone, you know, so everyone, it was all fun and things like that, but there was a hint of kind of like serious in the Senate, especially for him, you know, and he would mix by numbers and not by his ears and weird stuff like that. Lucius Borich (COG): And, you know, it was just, it was a fun experimental time. So, and the product came up really good. The song came up fantastic. And, um, we had that song and that was kind of like. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: um, Lucius Borich (COG): That hit the radio on triple Jeremy. I must digress a little bit and just say with the EPS that we had, um, one of the songs, um, and kind of the, one of the stories I was telling you before we were, did the podcast before I was telling you about working in a cafe, and I'm hearing one of the songs off that is the piece that came on on the radio, which was a song called Bondai. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, you know, it was, it was in between, you know, two, I guess, big bands with big production and big budgets. But there was our little song that was done on a Tascam 6, 8, 8, done in a, you know, a rehearsal room and I'm washing the dishes, you know, listening to this song of ours going far out. Like we got it on the radio. Lucius Borich (COG): I'm like, that's just incur, like, and it really spoke to me in a, in a, in a way that. You don't have to have the big budget. You don't have to have all the bells and whistles. You just got to have a really good song. You know, and, and that can go places regardless of the production. Cause you know, definitely the production is, you know, not as, as good as I would want it to be, but it's just interesting to note that something of that nature and production got to where it got to and got a chance on the radio more than once. Lucius Borich (COG): I think I actually got some rotation, got quite a bit of rotation, which was fantastic and gave us confidence to keep going. And then, um, we released open up that cover that cover one and that got traction on triple J as well. Um, which gave the band, you know, some, I guess. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: some broader, Lucius Borich (COG): You know, ears and fans and people who wanted to, you know, come and see us play. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, so yeah. Then, um, from there it was kind of like, okay, well, w and we had, after all those, you know, the, the AP, um, well, we call it, uh, uh, what would you call it? It was like a Digi, uh, um, um, not an EAP, a maxi single that's what it was. So I only had four tracks, so we had them, the maxi single, which also had a, a, um, like a, a remix of, of, um, open up, which was pretty cool, which Sean Boucher did because he was riding to sidetrack. Lucius Borich (COG): You know, side trans music and going to all those type of, you know, alternative Duffs and all that stuff and getting the crystals on and, you know, taking whatever to get as high as he probably couldn't vibrate with the elements of music. So, um, we, we added a dance track in there, which was pretty cool, which he remixed. Lucius Borich (COG): And then, you know, over that period of time, we'd, we'd pretty much written and recorded with Shawn, another prototype, um, album, which was going to become the new normal, which we were going to release, but it was, it was my, I kind of was like, no, I really, this time I want to get into a good studio, a really good studio and with a producer and let's take it up a notch, you know? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And that's when you went back to the United States and recorded, basically he basically on the opposite end of the scale with one of the most prestigious producers in one of the finest studios you recorded with a Soviet Messi, Correct. I want to hear all about it, please. I, you know, I admire Sylvia for, you know, the records she's, she's done and She's done some of the most you know, of my favorite records. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Many of my favorite records. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, me Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So, and she's, she's really creative. And does a lot of unusual things. Yeah, Tell us about that experience. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. So it came about, um, I was kind of like, well, let's see some of the producers that we like, um, and, and see if they'll do it, you know, let's, let's get in contact with them. Lucius Borich (COG): So I was busy, um, you know, sending basically this prototype demo album out to these producers and Sylvia was one of them. And back in those days, you know, before I had a computer, I'd go to the internet cafe. And, you know, send stuff out there and emails, and it was all kind of relatively new. And I sent her the stuff and out of about four or five different producers, she was the one that answered back and she said, I love it. Lucius Borich (COG): It's fantastic. I want you to come and record. Let's do this. And I remember getting that email and running back home, just like just going, oh my God, like this producer, who's done this, you know, all this type of music. And it's got all this experience, loves our stuff and I was over the moon. Or then we hit another brick wall, which was boy, how do we get there? Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and I was just all about. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, Lucius Borich (COG): In that ecstasy Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, Lucius Borich (COG): period of, of the moment, just, you know, having such a great time with going someone likes our music, a big producer likes our music. That's awesome. But then the, you know, the door slammed in my face. We haven't got any money. How are we going to? So I went offered our booking agency. Lucius Borich (COG): Uh, he, he had some connections to some record labels, independent record labels, and there was a new one starting up, uh, with Paul Kreiger, um, who come out of some major labels. And, um, David Edwards, not sorry, not David Edwards. Um, he was later on in the picture, um, David Lowy, who, um, started a record label called different music, which was completely independent. Lucius Borich (COG): So they liked the band. Um, we were the first band to sign on the line. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: label, Lucius Borich (COG): Um, different music and they gave us the money to go over and record with Sylvia because we, you know, we, we said, we've got this great producer. And they were like, fantastic. They, they threw 60 grand at, at us and said, go and make that record, that, that prototype and, and, um, you know, and we did. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. And we went over there and, um, it was the studio at the time was studio. Um, um, Sylvia had accumulated a lot of gear and she had a beautiful Neve desk and she put it in, uh, an old art deco theater, um, in a town called weed, which was kind of like, I guess, and I think it's four hours north of San Francisco. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. So you're looking at kind of like twin peaks, you know, Rambo style, you know, town, a town, you know, you know, some of the locals go, yeah, this is where people come to die, you know? So she had a studio there and with all of these. Yeah, and we, and we, and we, we showed up there and it was really quite, and it was, it was interesting because it was like a parallel of kind of where we are now of this local area, Byron and, and, you know, balancer and, you know, the, um, Northern rivers, which was quite alternative, um, quite spiritual in some aspects and independent and free thinking and all the rest of it. Lucius Borich (COG): And, and Mount Shasta, which was a majestic beautiful mountain, just over. Basically when you looked out the studio there, it was, and this studio was like really admired by, you know, the indigenous cultures of, of, um, you know, the Indians and stuff there of America and, um, a sacred kind of vortex place. Yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): Like these are key, these clouds that would come over where they call the Cumulus clouds or whatever. Um, no, it's a different name for them. I forget. But they would form, you know, they look like spaceships around the, the mountain and there was snow and all this time, it was really a completely different place from where we grew up, which was surf and skateboarding and stuff like that. Lucius Borich (COG): So it was, um, super majestic and we spent six weeks there recording the new normal with Sylvia and she didn't want to touch the music so much as to just get and capture the rawness of what we were doing. So. Um, we did a little bit of good experimentation, but she, she loved the song structures of things so much. Lucius Borich (COG): She didn't really mess with that too much at all. It was more just capturing the sound. And we did that. We did capture it all to pretty much two inch tape, which got dumped into pro tools. And then, you know, it was also mixed out through the Neve gear and some other stuff. And, and that became the new normal. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. And working with her was great. She was, you know, she, it was just. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: um, Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, awesome too, for me wanting to be an engineer and go down that path and mixing and, you know, I was just like a pig in mud, really just soaking it up, just, you know, the room where we recorded him was it was a theater, you know, it was like a huge, and there was the stage down the bottom. Lucius Borich (COG): That's where the drum kit was. So she was able to capture a big room sound if she wanted to use it, but also baffle off the drum sound, um, you know, to make it a bit tighter. But, um, yeah, we were really happy with that album. Um, and, and, and kind of like, as they say, the rest is history for that one. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. Look, obviously I listened to that record and the sound speaks for itself, but most importantly, you know, I find the music completely mesmerizing and it takes me to the moment. And it's Lucius Borich (COG): like, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Even just, the drumming by itself is capturing, you know, it's, it's, uh, I, I get lost in it. immediately and, uh, it takes me on a journey. and, you know, your, your performance, you know, is absolutely stellar. and she managed to capture a certain magic of this moment. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That takes me there. That that makes me feel like, oh my God, I'm in the middle of the band or, you know, I'm really feeling it. So, Lucius Borich (COG): well, that's what you want. You know, that's what you do Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. And Lucius Borich (COG): really want to, you know, like the records I previously listened to. You know, um, person growing up and, you know, just getting that escape from anything that's kind of in your, um, field of vision at that point, you know, you're taken off on a journey, you know, through music, through vibration, through sound and, and you're, you're kind of somewhere else and you, you can daydream, you can dream, you can imagine you can manifest things you can, you know, um, because you're listening to music, you know, it's like a soundtrack to your life in many ways as well. Lucius Borich (COG): And, um, yeah, I'm glad that it had that effect on you. That's that's really great, you know, because that's what that was part of the aim of that was to, you know, capture people to some degree and, and, you know, just help them kind of, um, you know, feel a different way, you know. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Can you talk about, you know, the hat space you were in when you laid on these drums was what was going on there? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Was that an uphill battle was, were you working really hard or was that effortless of what happened. there? How did it, how did feel, how did it feel for me is, always Lucius Borich (COG): real double-edged sword. Um, and I get really hard on myself when I record and we'd done quite a previous, a lot, a lot of previous background work, you know, we were adding some of the songs live and, you know, all that type of stuff. Lucius Borich (COG): So I had a bit of a grip on what I wanted to do. Um, but with always the intention of coming up with some, you know, some new stuff or, you know, just, you know, I never, I never really mapped things out too much. I like to keep things a bit more spontaneous and perhaps something quite, uh, spontaneous and magical as they say will appear and you'll play a certain part or a certain thing that you won't play again, but it will be captured. Lucius Borich (COG): And that did happen quite a few times on, on the recording of the new normal, although I had the beds in the foundations and those layers cemented, um, cause. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: like, Lucius Borich (COG): I like to play tribally as well, like on Tom's, you know, and totally on Tom's and not just, you know, high hi-hat kick and snare all the time. And as I said, you know, I wanted the band to have some type of Prague element to it. Lucius Borich (COG): So you've got the freedom to be very, um, experimental on the Toms and different patterns and different time signatures and, you know, Polaroid, poly rhythmic stuff, and, you know, rudimentary stuff, using those as, as rhythm I pose to, you know, you're fantastic, you know, straight ahead, meat and potatoes kind of grooves, which I love, but, um, Yeah, it was when I was recording it. Lucius Borich (COG): I think I remember being just quite frustrated Jan 'Yarn' Muths: in Lucius Borich (COG): some respects because I just wanted it to be so good and, you know, Flynn and Luke were really patient with me because I'm so hard on myself and, you know, I can really, you know, spit the dummy and, and all that type of stuff. And I just, you know, some of the, sometimes I wouldn't get the performance as, as, as much as I thought I had it down, you know, you, you're working with a producer, who's, you know, played with some of the, you know, and recorded some of the best musicians that are out there. Lucius Borich (COG): And so you, you. You know, you, what you you're, you're in a, okay. There's only about seven or eight people hanging around, you know, the engineers, the crew, you know, the band, but you know, there's a nervous, you know, aspect to it, you know, because you don't want to take up too much time either, you know, you don't want it to Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It costs money, you know, pressure us on. You gotta perform, you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: know, when, Yeah. When the tape's rolling. Lucius Borich (COG): that's exactly right. And I mean, by that time, I'd had quite a lot of experience in the studio and recording and I loved doing it as well. I love the deaf different environment, but it was, it was pretty challenging even though I thought I had it down, you know, I, I still, I think it was just, I was really hard on myself, so, and I still am, you know, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I'm completely gobsmacked because you know, the way you explained it, now I see a small element. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: of, Can I call it self doubt in you? When I listen to it, you know, I used to call myself a drummer to me, this is a stellar performance, not Nothing short of stellar. So when, when I hear you, you know, looking at it so critically that's I didn't expect that. I did not. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. I think I've loosened the I've I've loosened the strings a little bit on myself and I don't beat myself up as much as I used to, which is good. Lucius Borich (COG): I mean, there was, there was times where you wouldn't want to talk to me for three days, you know what I mean? Cause I'd be like, no one talked to me. I'm shit. I can't play anymore. Um, you know, so, um, you know, I've become a little more softer on myself and I'm thinking I'm getting better results too, to some degree. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, although, you know, I guess it's just morphed and changed in, in, in, in something, um, inside myself. That's, you know, I've, I've leveled out a little bit there and um, I'm appreciating the aspect of just being there and playing and feeling lucky enough to partake in music. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. All right. So today you're not only. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, Constantly touring musician. You're also a record producer mix engineer recording engineer. and You do a lot of the engineering side of, of that. Lucius Borich (COG): that's it? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Do you sometimes come across musicians who go through the same stages, you know, self doubt or frustration and, and having gone through yourself? have you got methods to to guide them and help them to overcome these these obstacles? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What's our take on those? Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, I, I definitely, um, after, you know, producing and working with other musicians in the studio, um, have tried my best through the experience that I've had to offer whatever solutions or guidance I can to make them feel, uh, not as pressurized for them, for themselves. Um, and, you know, keep them as relaxed as possible. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, you know, um, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I might Lucius Borich (COG): Try to avert their attention away. And S some, I might just from left field, start talking about something completely different, you know, that just takes their mind off themselves for a minute. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Um, And, Lucius Borich (COG): you know, because when they're doubting themselves, they, it's, it's a big, it's a big black hole that can get bigger. Lucius Borich (COG): So if, if you can try to, you know, somewhat steer them away for a wall, um, in their mind, in their thoughts. Um, and also, you know, just, uh, just make them feel confident that if, especially if I'm producing that I know what I want. So it's okay. You know, don't worry too much, you know, you may not be re reaching your, you know, where you think you need to be, but from a producer's perspective and recording and, and. Lucius Borich (COG): To you, I think we've got what you need. Um, other than that, you know, do three or four takes, go outside, go for a walk, do something different, you know, I don't know, clear your mind, come back and have another two or three goes at it and let's see what we can get. So there's different strategies for different people because different, you know, they've, they've all, you know, all artists are slightly quirky and eccentric to some degree. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, so you've got to work with that. Um, but so far so good, but I've had some people that have been, you know, just brilliant, like amazing people and up and coming artists and singers. Um, and I guess, yeah, to some degree they are remind me of myself back in the day, but I've had some people who've just, the bands are fallen apart afterwards and it's not, not good enough. Lucius Borich (COG): And you know, which is a shame because I saw real potential Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that happened to me once where literally the band blew up in the studio. and broke up in front of me. Lucius Borich (COG): I've never had it in front. I've never had that. I've had it often. I've had a few bands not finished the project, which I've always been, you know, it's not, hasn't been in front of me, but they've just turned around and said, nah, I w we've broken up on, uh, you guys, uh, you know, like just at least finish it and then beat the shit out of each other. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. I know it's, It's a difficult, you know, mental place to be, and, you know, and then the production stage, because it often feels like uh, when when I speak to musicians in in their own mind, they're a little bit ahead of their playing technique. So they're there, You know, the mind Trevor, it's a bit faster than the buddy. can turn the, Mute, the instrument into into sound Lucius Borich (COG): for Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And, uh, That's, that's been something that I've come across many times. where Lucius Borich (COG): that expectation of self, you know, like you, you, you, in your mind, you've got a vision or an idea of, of, you know, where you probably want to be. And, but you're just not reaching it, you know, which is a good thing to some degree, because I guess if you, if you always were, you know, reaching those targets, maybe that's the plateau, you'd just stay at, you know, maybe it's one of those things where you just, you know, you get better, you don't notice it, but then you go, I'm still not as good as I want to be. Lucius Borich (COG): Then you get better and you don't notice it, but I still want Jan 'Yarn' Muths: exactly. And as You get better, you know, your own expectation travels with, it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So it feels like in some ways you, you stay where you are, because, you know, as you get better then you understand the next most more complex thing. Yeah. Right. It's it's a tricky one. Yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): Cam it can be, it can be Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and I always found that That's the real part of bod recording, you know, to work with a band, and make them overcome the obstacles within themselves, and get them to really enjoy themselves. whereas, Lucius Borich (COG): And, and, and creating art should be about that. You know, the enjoyment, I think the, you know, there's one aspect about creating art in terms of like visual sound and five senses that, um, you know, they re it re the conscious mind, really wants it to be, as you think, and feel it and dream about it, you know? Lucius Borich (COG): Um, but in reality, sometimes it doesn't quite hit that space, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, actually being there and doing something and being creative is like, you know, that's, that's, that's 10 out of 10, you know, and pat yourself on the back that you you've got it to this position, you got it to this, you know, part in, in, in creation where you, you were able to contribute, you know, and, and that's, you know, something that you can, um, You know, have as, uh, as, uh, a creative part of your life, you know, that will live on and sound and so have fun with it. Lucius Borich (COG): I mean, I've got, sometimes I, uh, I had a band come in. A couple of months back. And, and, um, and I put on the microphone now because I've got a shield in between the snare and the, in the high hat. And I just put a little sticker on it, which has just said have fun or was in flouro tape, just have fun, you know? Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and I've got that in the studio. I have fun, you know, like just, yes, it's serious, it's serious fun, but you know, have fun with it. You know, you really escaping the dilemmas and drama of the world and you're, you know, you're in your own little space creating something which in itself is, um, you know, it's amazing any of it works at all, as we like to say, especially with all the gear and you know, and how it comes to be and, um, how it becomes, um, I saw a source in itself that can, again, uh, you know, be experienced by, by the human mind and consciousness, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's in itself is, is fantastic. Lucius Borich (COG): It's amazing such an achievement, you know, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that's right. That's right. Um, Can I change the subject one more time when you, so that's okay. So Koch went into a bit of a hiatus. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, about the eight to 10 years ago. Is that right? Baldwin six, six to eight. Lucius Borich (COG): That's about right. Yep. Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Now you're back together and playing live shows and all. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Can you talk about the future? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Are there any projects in the making that you could comment on? We can cut it out if you don't want to say worried about it. I understand. But do you know, what, what can you say? What are the plans for the future? Lucius Borich (COG): well, it's, it's, it's nice to kind of have this, um, uh, uh, unknowing, which is supper, which could be surprising, which, which could be exciting. Um, You know, I think there's, there's definitely intentions there. Lucius Borich (COG): The three of us have intentions to want to keep writing music, for sure. In one form or another, and definitely together as well. Um, and you know, we came back together after that hiatus. We didn't know whether what we'd done in the past had any kind of longevity or, you know, any life left in it. Um, we were pleasantly surprised by, you know, the people that had supported us over all these years and came out to those shows after five or six years and all the shows sold out. Lucius Borich (COG): And, and, um, you know, I think that gave us like the confidence to go well, you know, we're still playing pretty good. We still love playing together. People are still digging the music, you know, it, hasn't kind of drifted away into some type of fad or, you know, it's not relevant. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's still Lucius Borich (COG): You know, relevant even more so, you know, as the world drifts, you know, ever so more into a dystopian type of, uh, you know, world, the, the narrative of what we were singing about anyway, still held and does hold, um, you know, some commentary there when it comes to just the lyrics or the melodies, you know, or the lyrics or the, you know, the depth of the lyrics. Lucius Borich (COG): So that was good. Um, and you know, we, we thought to ourselves, well, we'll write a couple more songs, we'll put a few more songs out, see how that goes. We did that. They were just singles, um, which was great. They were received really well. And, um, you know, I, I basically. Within that time. I moved from where I was in Sydney and I moved to the Northern rivers, Byron Ballona, um, Flynn and Luke, they live in ocean shores, which is pretty much up the road. Lucius Borich (COG): So in order to keep working and functioning, you know, it was better. And I wanted to get out of Sydney anyway with my, my family. So, um, we made that move, which made it easier to get together, start rehearsing and writing a few more, you know, bits and pieces. Um, and the intention is there. So I think the obstacle is a few things. Lucius Borich (COG): We've all got different things going on. We're all older and have families and different responsibilities. So as many musicians and people, as we know, you know, it just, it, it life, um, does life, you know, and, and, you know, I've had to learn extreme patients for some reason. My nature is not very patient and the other two. Lucius Borich (COG): Uh, very patient. So, you know, I guess the lesson for me, there has been a gift, you know, from them to some degree to, to slow the fuck down, learn to be patient that, you know, there's a right time. Every we've all got our lives and dynamics going on. We're not funded by a record company. We've we own our stuff now, all our back catalog, and we've got to come up with the funds and we've got to come up with the, the right environments to, to be able to create and make more music, you know, so, you know, so be it, I'm kind of in the studio producing world, creating in a studio and have had studios in the past and stuff like that. Lucius Borich (COG): So the canvas is there, you know, the, the paints. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and Lucius Borich (COG): You know, the brushes and everything are there to use. It's more about finding the time. He know, and, and that is the, probably the biggest challenge. And, um, you know, we've got, we've got a few songs sitting there waiting to be finished and released, you know, we've got demos of songs, we've got parts galore, you know, on the little iPhones that, you know, just little jam sections. Lucius Borich (COG): It's just finding the time and, um, life does life. And, you know, I guess you it's, you've just got an ebb and flow with it and, um, it'll, it'll transpire and it, or it'll manifest when it, when it does, I guess, but the, the good news is the intentions there. The love for it's still there. We still want to keep riding. Lucius Borich (COG): We still want to keep, you know, um, I guess in a funny way, it would be like a. Uh, um, what would you call it a miracle if we're able to do another album, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, Lucius Borich (COG): knowing that we want to, you know, but also knowing life's challenges and, and what's in front of us to try and make that happen, you know, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Defying the odds again, and you know, Lucius Borich (COG): which, you know, would be great for material great for, you know, you need life's, um, experiences and the ebbs and flows and, you know, the ups and the downs and whatever you need content you need, you need, you need real life experiences to put into song. Um, because you, you know, you are to some degree, um, You're capturing a part of yourself, your experiences and time and what you're witnessing in the broader world with, with a diff with Lee, with the lens that you have on that you're seeing and what's going on in the world. Lucius Borich (COG): So it's probably good to have periods of not always putting stuff out, you know, you can, you become a little wiser. So you have, uh, you have some time to reflect. You have some time to now talk about things in a different way or in a sing about things in a different way, um, that hopefully people will, um, you know, connect with. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Amazing, amazing, that Erie. It sounds like, you know, looking into your past, you've had, you've had more than enough opportunities to just walk away and you didn't now you just kept doing what you love. And I think you know, that's probably the reason why as a band, you're probably so successful. because you just went for it. And I guess that's, Lucius Borich (COG): yeah, there was, a lot of, um, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that's probably the energy you, you will carry into the future. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I hope Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. There was a lot Jan 'Yarn' Muths: of sacraments Lucius Borich (COG): in the early days to make it what, it was a Jan 'Yarn' Muths: only just start to imagine. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. A lot of sacrifice to get it to where it was in terms of other aspects and, you know, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you didn't give up and Lucius Borich (COG): we didn't give up. Yeah. We just, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: look at the things you're doing these days, that's okay. Lucius Borich (COG): it's nice to, you know, have, have contributed to the, you know, the musical world, you know, and, and the, the creative musical world, you know, w with the statements that we've made, the musical statements that we've made, um, You know, and I, and I think that's the thing about music and I have, uh, you know, music is a mortal. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, so make sure you make some, there's a bit of a bit of a saying that I have, you know, with, with, with the studio creeds quote on thing. So, um, yeah, w w well, time will tell, as, as they say, we're, we've got some exciting things coming up. We're taking those two albums, the new normal, and, uh, sharing space, which we also do with Sylvia. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and for the first time they were going to put them on. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent Lucius Borich (COG): you know, that's letting the cat out of the bag a little bit. So hopefully, um, towards the end of the year, um, we will have these things, um, wrapped up and, you know, ready for, for people to, you know, those albums they're long songs. So I think the new normal is like a triple album. Lucius Borich (COG): So, so it's, you know, and, and the artwork on it was so great done by my cousin, um, Daniel Parkinson, who was his dope Parkinson son. He's a graphic designer, an artist in his own, right. Did all the early hanging tree artwork. Um, and, uh, so the artwork was, is for the new normals. Awesome. And also is, um, you know, uh, the stuff for the sharing space. Lucius Borich (COG): So to have that on vinyl and have it nice and big, um, will be, you know, really great, um, uh, piece of. You know, at the end of the day. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: well, I'll be up for it. I love my vinyl and. Lucius Borich (COG): too. Mines, you know, I'm slowly, still accumulating and Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I really love the deliberate act of putting on a vinyl record and cleaning. And and, you know, you gotta take time. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: to do it. It makes you appreciate music a bit Lucius Borich (COG): the people now have missed there nowadays have missed out on these generation, you know, like I tell the story of like, you know, that's why you became. You know, so passionate and such a fan and, you know, and gave music so much value was because you saved your money through the week you got on the bus, you went into town, was what I did. Lucius Borich (COG): You search the record stores like, uh, you know, you were searching for gold or silver or, you know, pearls, and you'd go through the albums and you'd bring them back home and you'd take them out of the sleeve. And you'd look at the, get open the car and you put it on the, and you'd hope that the needle is still, you know, in good shape and he'd get a cup of tea or whatever else, and you'd put it on, you put your headphones on and you'd put the needle on and off. Lucius Borich (COG): You'd go. And you spent time, you know, that's, you know, music had seemed to have more, you had more of a relationship and connection because you spent your energy and time, you know, really, you know, gathering the resources to get that piece of music, to have that experience. And it's definitely a different world now. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah, more of a, you know, kind of throw away, you know, fast food, musical experience than what it used to be. And perhaps that's one of the reasons and probably is one of the reasons why music these days seems to not have as much value, you know, or especially the way it's sold or what's coming back to the musician, you know? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And, um, I guess the, these records will be sold through the Coke website. Yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): w through the COG website, and we're working with, uh, a guy who, um, who worked with us on the, just visiting. And it's good to note that, um, to just visiting our album from the task cam 6, 8, 8 TDK cassette tapes got turned into vinyl 10 years later, you know, we had that mastered by Tony, Jack, the bear in Melbourne. Lucius Borich (COG): He did that project. He's, he's going to be doing this project as well. And, and Doug who runs rare records out of. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Melbourne, Lucius Borich (COG): He's got a successful vinyl, a record store loves these vinyl. And as you know, it's very boutique and, and, uh, he's all about the sound and it being very, um, dedicated to. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you know, Lucius Borich (COG): It being a real piece of art and value, something that someone can value, you know, in terms of UDA, Sonic sound and also a visual thing. Lucius Borich (COG): So yeah, we, we created, we're going to create something pretty cool and we're going to be releasing that hopefully towards the end of the year. Um, and that's super exciting for us because it's something we've wanted to do for a long time. We've been tied up in red tape with, you know, record, um, record contracts and whatnot for a few years. Lucius Borich (COG): So we've had to wait for that to kind of elapse, to be able to kind of do this type of thing. So yeah, it's like in your new horizon in that, in that respect and we're, we're, we're over the moon and super excited, you know, and maybe they, maybe they can give us the funds also to produce some more music, you know? Lucius Borich (COG): Cause you, you need more funds to get the time to write more music. So hopefully that will be, um, something that help get the ball rolling a little bit. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I'd like to, to put The uh, the link to the Coke website, into the show notes, if that's okay. with you. And, uh, you know, in addition to this, let's say, if a listener was looking for, a studio drummer or live drummer, or maybe somebody to produce a record with, um, are there any places where people could find, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you as, as a drummer or a record producer? Lucius Borich (COG): yeah, I just go off some of the socials that, um, that we all have our guests, which are typically Instagram and Facebook more, I'm more of an Instagram kind of guy. It's a bit, bit, I don't know. I seem to be easier for me. And I kind of liked the way that, that kind of, I interact with that. Um, so yeah, I've, I've got, you know, numbers and, you know, websites or source emails that you can basically get in contact with me. Lucius Borich (COG): And so Lucius Birch drums, um, is the Instagram page then there's yeah. And there's cold. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: 1 0 1. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, so there's links from, you know, those types of things. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Lucius Borich (COG): Um, and yeah, off the back of the COG website too, there's a page. That's just got all the links to all the individuals in the band that have different socials and whatnot. Lucius Borich (COG): So you can get in contact with me that way. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I guess I rushed ahead a bit here, but you know, are you available as a studio drummer? If somebody has got an exciting project. Is that something that you would consider Lucius Borich (COG): a hundred percent? You know, like I, I branch out in so many different ways and, and, you know, one of the reasons is, is I want with the sticks in my hand, and I want to have the experience of, you know, playing the drums one to keep oiled, I guess, and kind of COGnitively functioning. Lucius Borich (COG): Yeah. And, um, you know, and the next thing is just to be able to dynamically be in many different musical experiences, um, styles of music. So, you know, I play a lot of cover gigs. You know, I play a lot of cupboard gigs with a lot of different, great musicians around, you know, where I live. It's always exciting. Lucius Borich (COG): We're always playing, you know, great faith, famous songs. Um, and I love doing that and I love, um, playing on other records for other people. If they, you know, if they want me to play on their stuff, I mean, I've got a recording studio, so. I have the ability and the way that I've set it up is, um, I can record it all and then edit it all and then just send it to whoever needs to, you know, the drum track and they can do what they want with it. Lucius Borich (COG): So, um, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: so anybody could hire you from the other end of the world if they Lucius Borich (COG): anywhere, anytime pretty much. And it's great to have, you know, my own studio so I can kind of jump to that quite quickly and get it done. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So for the listeners tune in and check it out and if you ever need a drummer reach out, thank you so much for making, you know, finding the time to chat to me and sharing all your, all your amazing stories and wisdom. I really appreciate Lucius Borich (COG): Thank you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Thank you so much for that. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Lucius Borich (COG): Fantastic. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: While, how good was that? Thank you, Lucius for sharing all this amazing wisdom and giving us a bit of an insight in the inner workings of, of COG and the amazing musical career that you've had so far. So we're really excited to see what the next steps off for you and your band. And I'm sure there's some amazing stuff to come. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: If you want to reach out to Lucius as a producer, you can also find him on Instagram, under a studio, 1 0 1 underscore recordings. And of course, I'm going to put this link into the show notes as well. After the interview, we hang around for a, for a little while in his studio and took some photos and, uh, Lucia started hitting the drums and it took a little video. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So I put this into the show notes as well. It was just goofing around, not even warming himself up and it was ridiculously amazing. So, um, I used to call myself a drummer in an earlier life, so I still know how to appreciate good drumming. And that was just really cool. Okay. So we are nearing the end of the episode. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So please don't be a stranger and reach out to me. Join the production talk podcast community on Facebook. That's where I hang around. That's where to answer questions. That's where you can find out more. And if you ever need any help, mixing your music, reach out to me via mixed that a you, my website, I'm always happy to help. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Or if you just need an opinion or have a question, a second opinion, maybe you can, of course also reach out to me there. And I would love to chat to you and find out more about your music and help you, however I can. Just before we finish up. Let me just give you a quick update on the flat song project that I introduced a couple of episodes ago, it's in full swing. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: A small team has formed. I'm getting some help from some friends, including Safira stone, who was on this podcast not too long ago. And she's very happy to help. We also have my friend Nathan on board who is a ridiculously talented engineer and producer. So that's amazing to have. And Andy Stewart, who also popped up in an earlier episode of the production talk podcast, offered some help, possibly with mixing and, uh, I hope to get him to master some of the songs. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So the team is forming some amazing engineering skills is teaming up here to have local musicians. So if you know any flood effected musicians who could use a little bit of help, please reach out and pass the message on the webpage was mixed songs. So I would really appreciate if you could please share this far and wide. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. That's all for this episode. Thank you very much. Speak to you next time.
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