Welcome to the Production Talk Podcast with me Yarn of mixartist.com.au. In this podcast series. We celebrate the modern way of producing music. We want to talk about all things related to songwriting. Recording at home and music production. So if you produce your music at home. This is the place to be please subscribe and recommend this podcast to all your friends. This is. Production talk podcast episode Eighteen welcome back to the production talk podcast today is the special day as this particular episode is going to be released on my forty sixth birthday. I was born in 9075 which was a very special Year in the world of music Queen recorded their legendary night at the Opera album over the course of four months in mid Nineteen seventy five and released the album in November. Which means I may have been born around the same time when Bohimiium rhapsody was mixed also in one seventy five Rupert Neve delivered a true legend of a mixing console to festival records studios in australia this legendary neave 80 38 console was later installed in Studios 3 1 in byron bay where it was known as the seventy five Festival Neve console during this time I only worked a few times on the legendary eve console but 1 of these times was the mix for a song that later won me an award for production engineering. The console is now owned by turtle rock in Sydney but during its time in the mid 2000 s in Byron bay the console was used as an inspiration for the design of the custom series 75 mixing console which was built and manufactured by hand in Byron bay from about 2000 eleven to 13 I worked as the manager of the custom series 75 factory until the business was sold to Burbank in Los Angeles, where it is still in production today. As you can see, the number seventy five has a special meaning to me and today I'd like to invite a true music production legend and studio veteran. To tell us about the last 46 years of the music production business Jim Bonnefond is well known for the production of Kool And The Gang's number 1 hit “Celebration” among many other world-renowned songs from artists such as savage garden and jimmy cliff. Jim is a lovely guy and a real gentleman who loves to share his knowledge and experience with young producers today. So without further ado this is our conversation with legendary producer Jim Bonnefond. Speaker Transcript Jan 'Yarn' Muths So Jim thank you so much for for making the time you know to to speak to me today and you're a bit of an industry veteran. You've been around for much longer than I have in the industry and you've been significantly more successful. So I'm I'm really excited to. Actually speak to you about your experience and your past and when I looked up your your history I found that the oldest reference or credit that I could found was on the ninety seventy five diodeto record first cuckoo if I pronounced this correctly. Jim Bonnefond First cuckoo that's correct. Yeah I do I remember I I think I was assisting the engineer on that 1 and a few others he did a number of albums at the studio I worked at and the last few Jan 'Yarn' Muths Do you remember that? what. Jim Bonnefond I recorded the very last 1 we did together I produced and recorded a mix but he and I became very good friends and it was because of our friendship that I ended up getting to work with cool in the gang initially and then he left and then I ended up producing cool in the Gang. So yeah, that was a. Ah, solid relationship which actually had a foundation in the fact that we both were accordion players as children but we had that in common and we could bind over that. Yeah well yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, that's cool. Yeah, well that was forty 6 years ago that was actually the year I was born and I consider myself an old fella and you were already producing at that time you have so much more experience than me was that 1 of your first recordings or is that just the first 1 that. Jim Bonnefond No oh gee. Ah. That was the it wasn't the first 1 but it was probably the first 1 that was nineteen seventy five did you say? Okay, yeah, then that would have been my first I did. Jan 'Yarn' Muths You got credits for. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Well, that's what Google said Yes so I believe that's probably true. Jim Bonnefond Did an album in the end of 75 with a band called Dr. Buzzard's original Savannah band and that was a hoot and that was on ah rca records and that was the first engineering that I did that was nine months after I started so I was still green. But they wanted me to be the guy so I couldn't say no and I wouldn't say no. So yeah, that's that goes back. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yeah, right say Jim if you had a chance to speak that to that younger Jim from ninety seventy five and give yourself some advice that you wish you had known when you were young. What would that be. Jim Bonnefond Well, that's funny I should ask because 1 thing that I harp onto this day is you know personal interaction and and diplomacy in the control room and I think that's critically important to keep this brief.. The reason that i. Made advances rather quickly was because I got along with people and I didn't you know I knew when to shut up and I knew when to speak and I really I had I had gone to graduate school and had a lot of side courses in graduate School. So I kind of had an idea of you know how to have. Interact with people and and and not piss people off really and and that paid off. That's how Deodato and I got got going and um and and and cool in the gang I mean we did 6 albums together when I came to Australia I had worked with a friend Charles fisher. Who we I did some mixing for him in the states and then he and I worked together on a number of albums here in Australia So It's I wasn't the world's greatest engineer i'mho but we you know. I Enjoyed what I did and people seemed to be okay with me in the control room and that's important because you can have you can have a genius type who who can you know do everything under the sun. But if people are uncomfortable with them then they're not going to last most of the time they're not going to last and and that's. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, you are too humble. Jim Bonnefond But I tell students is I think that's really important to to bear that in mind. So yeah again I was fortunate to know that at the beginning but I did learn plenty of things along the way that that that were helpful. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay, we rushed straight into it actually meant to ask earlier what your career highlights were in your time in the us and nowadays in Australia if you had any particular moments in your career that were most meaningful to you. Jim Bonnefond Um, there were many probably the most meaningful was on on the fifth album that I did with cool and the gang for the fifth and sixth albums we were co-writing and we co-wrote a song called Joanna. And that was released I believe in eighty 3 um, yeah at the end of 80 3 and bmi broadcast music incorporated is um, performing rights organization in the states. 1 of the 2 big ones and it was and that song was their most played song for 19701980 four sorry nineteen eighty four and so they flew us all out to Hollywood and we had a big ceremony and celebration and and that was probably the most you know, exciting time for me. You know as you know from your own experience. A lot of the studio work is pretty grueling and you're just kind of grunting your way through it and and this was something that was like a serious reward I remember? Yeah yeah and it felt really good and I was so excited after that I. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay, so there was a lot of recognition. Jim Bonnefond I called home to my parents you know and and I forgot about the time difference it was 1 o'clock in the morning I woke them up and he said oh yeah, that's good. We're going back to sleep kind of thing. But yeah, that was that was kind of 1 of the high points but there were many times that I you know when I think back and reminisce there was a lot of things that happened over the years. That you know I'm glad that they didn't I wouldn't change at all. Yeah yeah in nineteen in 1980 6 I came here for a two week vacation really I was in hong kong and I called my friend Charles. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Fantastic And then you move to Australia How long ago was that? Jim Bonnefond Was living in rose bay at the time in the eastern suburbs I asked him to come on up and and let's hang out in hong kong and he said I can't do that I've got a new baby. Why don't you come to australia and I wasn't planning on it but I then changed my ticket and I came here for 2 weeks to see australia well as much as I could in 2 weeks and it ended up I didn't see hardly anything because on the way home from the airport. He asked me if I would remix an album. He just did with a band called the cockroaches. He wasn't happy with the way it came out and I said sure so I spent 2 weeks at albert studio on the north side. And I drove by the Opera house 14 times and that's always low really was the the harbor bridge and the opera house but that was really significant because that was my introduction to australia and the cockroaches who went on to become the wiggles. Treated me so well and they were so you know we went to their parents' house for a barbecue and tony and I played tennis and they took me to a cricket into a rugby and they couldn't do enough for me and I just felt like this is where I want to be so the next year I came back and I stayed with charles and his family. Jim Bonnefond For 3 months and we did the first nineteen twenty seven album and then we did another album with an artist named guy on and they both did really well and it was at that point that I said you know what I'm going to just move to australia and so eighty 8 I came Back. We did some more work together and and I stayed I got my my residency a few years later my citizenship in ninety six and the rest is history. Ironically I got my citizenship in 96 then 2 months later we moved to Nashville so. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, okay, so you still move for and back. You know do spend a bit of time in the Us Occasionally yeah, good say and you've seen. Ah so much of the industry So many decades in. Jim Bonnefond But yeah, so so it's still going going back and forth. Yeah, so. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Has there ever ever been a time and the music industry was not in a state of change was there ever a long period of stability. Do you remember any of that or has it always been changing. Jim Bonnefond Pretty much pretty much when I started. Well you're right? It's always been changing when I started which was 75 that was the midst of the disco era um r and b was changing a bit becoming more towards pop. Jim Bonnefond Cool and the gang originally was a like a funk band and they had their early hits Hollywood swing in an open sesame and Jungle Boogie and things like that were very different from what we did when when I got involved which was nineteen Seventy Nine. The president of the label wanted to take them in a different direction make them more pop more mainstream and so that's when we did songs like get down on at celebration ladies night stuff like that It was still R and b. But it was more Mainstream. You know it had a big white audience as well as a black audience and um, yeah, that's things really started I mean in the in the early eighty s Punk Rock kind of made made came on the scene and I did some of that. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yeah, and I guess all the media production. Jim Bonnefond Um, of that. Yeah and the midi production that in eighty 3 and so things were changing as far as the studios were concerned because once midi happened then that that changed how often people would need the studio. You know a lot of people even cool in the gang their last album they did all the programming at home and we just came into the studio and we dumped it to Tape and the changes were more I mean they were musical changes as well. But the changes were more significant in the equipment because digital came on the scene and that changed everything you know tape started to disappear and you know and then there were a whole variety of hardware digital recorders and then they disappeared and there was digital audio workstations which is where we are now you know the Cds came and went compact discs. 1 of those little things called the little record thing minidisk. Yeah, they were around for about 3 years or 4 years and yeah, so a lot of things came and went quickly. So yeah, there were a lot of changes that way musically. Jan 'Yarn' Muths We had do you remember mini disks. Yeah I was in love with them for yeah, exactly and then they disappeared entirely. So was funny. Jim Bonnefond Yeah, of course people are always kind of taking things in new directions. But really if you listen to a lot of music a lot of isn't isn't so far from the original stuff people are still influenced by the original types of music and and things and. Think what's changed more is the themes that people write about I think they're a little bit more. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, lyrically things have changed.. They've gotten a little bit more. Ah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay, as in the lyrics. Jim Bonnefond Kind of down and dirty a little bit I mean song if you go way back to the like Fifty s and 6 things. Everything was safe. It was just I love you you love me you know let's go skip together into the sunset and then it gradually change and nowadays people are writing about some serious things you know. Rape and incest and all that kind of stuff that you read in the news people are now not afraid to actually write about it in in lyrics. So I think that's changed a lot and then of course you know, using drum loops and and and drum machines and things like that. Um, has kind of changed the the texture of the music but some of it's you know some of it's very similar to what it was years and years ago and I mean you know my. My wife will listen to some things on the radio. Say oh that sounds like so and so from the Seventy s and it really does if you listen to it. So yeah' there's been changes and as I said to me the biggest changes have been in the technology because that's changed the whole industry. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes, that's right so musicians today are sort of expected to be the songwriter and the composer and the arranger and of course the performer but also the recording artist or recording engineer and. They produce themselves at home. They record themselves in their bedrooms using you know, software and then they're also supposed to mix themselves and sometimes even master and publish and release that was not the case in previous decades. Yeah, so when did that come up when. Jim Bonnefond Well I think as equipment and and digital workstations became more available and and affordable more and more people got on that bandwagon and started doing themselves and some of them were successful and. You're right? They try to do all of those things which I don't think is necessarily good, but sometimes you don't have the money to pay a producer or you don't have to pay a mastering engineer and so you you just do it yourself and some people are better at it than others. Um. You know there's a lot to be said about record companies even though they you know the big complaint with record companies is that you know they took all the money and they gave you just a little bit of the money and they you know didn't put enough and effort into promoting your record and all that kind of thing. But. Flip side of that is they had everybody that you needed they had lawyers and they had Pr people and they had a and R people and they had marketing guys and you know the whole team was there and you paid for it. But if you had good Product. You could. You know you could make back the money that they lent you to make the album and then start to enjoy the profits so in in the case of Coolant the Gang. You know they they ended up their budgets went higher and higher as time went on but they were making much more money in record sales and so it didn't really matter and now with. I Mean there are still record companies but without record companies. It's really hard to track your income and you know because of streaming and sales kind of diminished I mean everything's kind of streaming now or more So. The income isn't what it used to be. So there's now the industry's changed. There's other ways that you have to make money like merchandising and live performance and stuff like that and and I'm sure more than that. But it's just changed so much from when I started. It was the record company and if you did well. Record company made it happen for you and they would pay you they would send you your your royalty checks and you could count on it and that's all changed. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yeah, so since you've seen all these changes through so many decades if you had to you know pick a wild guess and look into your crystal ball. What's what's the industry going to be like in 10 years or maybe 20 years what's your prediction. Jim Bonnefond Well, it's it's hard to say that that's a tough question. Um I mean obviously we'll still have music. People will be performing and writing music. That's not going to change. Um I think that there's a lot of. Um, Outcry for I think artists and and and writers and people aren't really getting paid what they should be getting paid anymore that's changed for the worse for them and I think that there's got to be some kind of reckoning. So that they so they could be profitable I mean this is not a hobby. You know this is a career that people were making a choice to do and if you're talented then you can then that's a good choice for you but you need to be paid decent money for what you're doing and I think it's gotten to the point where that's hard hard to find. Jan 'Yarn' Muths That's right because after yeah, please keep going. Jim Bonnefond So We're so getting back to you get getting back to your question 10 or 20 years from now I think it's got to shift back a little bit so that it's more lucrative for for artists and writers um to be in this business. I Mean That's maybe that's wishful thinking but we're hoping yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths I hope it's not that will be fantastic I think that's definitely what the industry needs. So we've seen a big change in income where you know thinking about the Ninety s most of the time the money was coming from cd sales. And the tour was used in order to promote more sales and then in the 2000 s it sort of turned around where there wasn't much money from selling records anymore. But instead people were touring and making money from the tour. So the sidibi came the tour that was used to market the tour and. Now since covid we've sort of lost the income from physical sales now that is streaming and with Covid we now lost the income from from life gigs. So that puts a lot of musicians in a really really difficult spot. Yeah, yeah, so something really has to change. Jim Bonnefond Yep. It's tough times now for sure. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Um, and yeah, let's see what the future brings and let's really hope that I guess it comes down to political will to some degree and you know it's a bit of global coordination to make that work. But. Jim Bonnefond Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Hope you're right I hope because you know, um I'm pretty sure that music of course will be around now people will still make music but it's got to come to a point where it we yeah where we make a proper return. Okay, so if you think about you know musicians today. Ah, all the things they have to do you know most of them produce themselves from home today if there was 1 thing you would recommend them to outsource to a professional which 1 would you pick which part of the production cycle. There. Jim Bonnefond Um, I think that see producers have become many things and you know sometimes producers in in the traditional sense. Don't come close to what they used to do you know they're. Sometimes Producers have money to pay for it and that's their contribution. Sometimes they have the gift of gab and they talk their way in and but in some cases the producer is the guy that takes a song and turns it into something Um, and. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes. Jim Bonnefond Mark ronson he's a producer right? Besides an engineer and he he can you can here's the thing it used to be I'd come to you I'd pull out my guitar or a piano I'd play you a song and I'd sing it and you'd say that's. That's a hit that's a hit. Let's record it and you would get a band or you would get an arranger or you would get who whomever it took go into a recording studio and make that song come to life and that happened in many places in the United states it happened. Ah, with the wrecking crew in california and with the Motown band and with muscle shoals and all these studios they had their own bands that could you know you'd play him a song and they would take it and then the guitar player would come up with a part and and the german say well let me do this beat to it and they would basically put that together and great. Songs came out of that I mean you started with the song that was great and then it it was interpreted and the final product was just sensational I think that that's a real talent and I think when you try to do it yourself. You're you're selling yourself short because you're losing input from from musicians. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes, because yeah, and nobody can be good at everything and all honestly. Jim Bonnefond And yeah, yeah, you know and if you write the song. That's great. You should be thrilled that you can write because that's probably the most lucrative part of the whole thing nowadays. Songwriters are still protected. They still get royalty checks for airplay and. Jim Bonnefond Licensing for films and commercials and all sorts of things. There's still an income stream for songwriters and publishers. So you know as ah, an artist shouldn't feel bad about farming some of that stuff ah out I mean if they have a skill for recording and a lot of them. Jim Bonnefond Can do a pretty good job of recording then they can record the stuff and they can get people involved to help out mixing I would say that's something else that they should probably farm out unless they really have have nailed that skill. Jim Bonnefond Mixing and mastering. Those are your last 2 shots to come up with something that's really going to be have some impact you know and I never I've never of all the things that I've done I've never mastered my own stuff because that wasn't my expertise and I didn't want to I didn't have the equipment for 1 thing and. Most of it was on vinyl so I couldn't master because I didn't have a cutting weight but I also figured that you know I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours recording and mixing it I don't know what I would change I need somebody with fresh ears to say. Yeah, it's good, but you really need this or you need that and that's why I would you know. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, yes. Yes, okay. Jim Bonnefond Always let somebody else do the mastering. So yeah, getting back to the original question. You know the production is important and and the mixing and mastering of course is important I mean it's all important but you know if you start with a good song it deserves to be. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes, yes, definitely. Jim Bonnefond Treated right? And as as you know you can always get people involved even if you bargain away some of your income or you know get somebody to that berize in you to back to you so you have some money to throw around a little bit. Because it's horrible to get people to work for nothing you know and you need to pay people. So anyway, that's that's my take on it. Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Thank you that that was a tricky question so you did well I like that I really like that. It's actually something that you know I've brought up before that it's you know, even today a wise idea to form small teams of specialists in order to try to do as much as you can, but. And all honesty. Find the things where somebody else is better and can take the production to the next level so that goes right on that alley. That's really good to see good. Um, all right say how is the u s music scene different from the australian music scene. what what differences do you see culturally and musically and you know from arrangement or mixing point of view. How how do these scenes differ. Jim Bonnefond Um, well I think that year by year they're becoming more similar as the world as globalization and affects every aspect of life. It's also affecting musical taste and and and practices. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay. Jim Bonnefond And things like that. So I think it's becoming more similar when I first came here. It was pretty obvious that australian music was grungier and it had more bite to it and it was more earthy and you know it looked like more legit. Not so gluttery and popsy kind of stuff. But. Um, that's changed over the years and now there's there's a lot more similarities than differences between us and australian stuff. Um the the funny thing is I'll just go getting off on a little tangent here I'll try to be brief when I moved here. Um. I worked on ah an an album by a band called euphoria and I ah did vocal recording because that's 1 of the things that I like to do and people hire me to get vocals to perform and. We got. We finished the album and then they said okay, now we're going to send it to new york to make to get it mixed and I said why are you going to send it there well because you know we send everything over to the either to the the states or or england to get it mixed. And I thought well at that point I knew enough engineers including myself that couldn't do a good job mixing it but they didn't really want to know about it because I guess they didn't have confidence in Australia or they thought that by having somebody from the states or from england you know the name. The location mixed in new york by so and so would help sales or credibility or something like that and then I went on to find that that was a common practice and and it's it's actually without getting into the tall poppy syndrome I think that but. Things it turns out that any a lot of the things that happened here and became successful in the United states the bands were then or the artist was then shunned by australians because they made it big and it's like I don't know how to explain it and I said I'd try to keep this short. I'll just let it go with that. Um, but it it turns out that with this 1 band. They they sent their next album there and then somebody from the record label got back to them and said you know this engineer that you're sending to mix it. He doesn't mix it anymore. He has assistant mix it. So they were sending it to a guy that wasn't even doing it and just taking the money and I thought wow sooner or later they got to wake up to this and I don't know if they ever did but a funny thing. But yeah, so I think that nowadays I mean there's still differences and and culturally you know there'll be. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes. Jim Bonnefond Um, you know you'll get some stuff like new orleans kind of jazz and and and funk that'll be different from you know so things that are area-specific in the United states have a certain sound to them that would be different from. Jim Bonnefond You know Australian probably is the same way you know but I don't think there's any Didgeridoo on any American stuff that I'm aware of. But yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, well that would be interesting to see of of 1 of our listeners knows something pleased. Ah post it in the comments that would be interesting to see. Jim Bonnefond Yeah I'm sure there I'm sure there is but it's it's I never I never recorded didgeridoo until I came to australia so and I don't think I ever saw 1 either. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay, Jim, you've seen you know you've been along the industry for such a long time and you've seen musical careers. You know, starting from really small and artists getting really big in. Over time have you have you seen that there are any similarities between you know the character traits or you know work demeanors of of those people. The the people who actually got really far in the industry. Is there anything that you noticed. Jim Bonnefond I've seen very talented people fail because of personality problems or egos which would be like part of a personality problem. Um, it seems like the the. People that have succeeded start out with a product that is good. They've got some good songs. They've got some good silent concepts and that's basically the thing that's going to generate interest if if if you have a bunch of turkey songs. Nobody's going to be interested anyway. So it doesn't matter what. Personality you have people are still going to shut the door on you I think it takes a lot of enthusiasm and it takes a person that can can pick themselves up after you know because everybody gets disappointments along the way. I think if you can kind of shake it off and and say no I'm going to do this and nobody's going to tell me I can't if you have that determination and talent behind it. You can succeed and and also people around you that believe in you because it's people that also make it happen. You can't do it on your own. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Wise words Very very good I Really like that because it you know really comes down to the mental game of of being a musician I guess in in some ways So you've also seen you know people reaching the top. And that's not necessarily. You know it's It's hard to stay on the top. So have you seen people you know, falling deep from the top or also other people staying there for Longer. What makes the difference is it people that it gets to the head and then they eventually. Crash the train and the plane into the mountains or others stay more level held it is is that is that true or what is it like for people who who stay there for long term. Jim Bonnefond Um, well I think that I think that it yeah I think that what what cool when the gang stayed there for a long time. You know they were big around nineteen seventy and then they had a resurgence in 79 and they were till like 85 or eighty 6 Um. Jim Bonnefond Did well the 6 albums that I did with them. They did really well. Um, they did 1 more on their own and then the lead singer left um and some key figures weren't involved anymore but they had a pretty good run I don't think very few people last forever I mean. You know there's aerosmith and Tom jones and people like that that just seem to end the stones and it seems like they'll just keep going until they can't go anymore at the same time I've seen people come and go like for example, savage garden two very talented guys. Jim Bonnefond And their first album was huge I think it did 10 million copies out of the box and in the united states they had a second album which didn't do nearly as well and then they broke up and there's quite a few bands that that happened I mean steely dan was a band that was. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay. Jim Bonnefond A great. Well, it wasn't really a band with 2 guys. But you know they had a great run and then there was differences between them simon and garfunkel ended up with differences between them a lot of times. There's just bands have had enough of each other and then they just. You know, break up and reform in some cases later on is a different band with different lineups. Um, um, yeah I think the bands that like there's quite a few. Maybe if you look into the history of 1 hit wonders. You'll see bands that like had that big success and then something came off the track came off the rails and they just you know lost it and disappeared and there's quite a few of them. You probably know a few yourself and it. So. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Um, absolutely yes. Jim Bonnefond There's usually something behind it. You know some reason why it didn't go on but I I think if you start with the Bandwidth the common like the thing about cooling the gang was they were really a group. They formed a corporation within themselves and they took it seriously and they were determined to just keep keep it up and they. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Ah, that's that's interesting so they had a ah well formed business structure behind their band is that what you're saying okay. Jim Bonnefond Toured yes, yeah, yes, and and so they you know they've continued to tour well up until they were supposed to be a blues spec spec blues fest. Last year and then of course it got canceled. But so yeah, some but some bands have longevity and it's usually because they have a common goal and you know I'm sure that they didn't all agree with everything that they all had to say but enough so that they could. Continue on and that was a big part of their. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Okay, good. Thank you I think it's probably time to sort of move towards the the finishing line with this interview Jim if we think about maybe one last question for may when when we think about you know, the. The musicians that you know that get into the market today that picked up you know a guitar and learned and hit the market these days they face very different challenges than you know what would you remember from from your past what advice would you have for for those people. Want to make it in the industry if they want to be a musician for for a long time. Jim Bonnefond Um, um. Well being able to play well was important obviously because you know there's a lot of musicians out there and and a lot of good ones I think if you can if you can hook up with somebody. Um. Has some like an artist or a band and get yourself involved in that so that you have kind of a good outlet for your your skills but also some kind of a future This doesn't necessarily pertain to. Jim Bonnefond Ah musicians it has more to do with songwriters but I knew a songwriter and she she was very good and she would always make sure that the people that she wrote with either had a deal or had a good manager that was good at getting deals so that she would be pretty much guaranteed that her songs would get recorded. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Yes. Jim Bonnefond And released so as far as musicians go if they can get on latch onto a situation like that so that they're going to be um, you know, almost guaranteed some work for a while and the other thing is and I try to encourage people to do this if you're in the studio recording. Then that's an excellent opportunity to help with the song sometimes the arrangements need help sometimes the lyrics need some tweaking the Melody needs some tweaking the structure. Whatever and they'll have ideas and if they can present their ideas and they start to get accepted. Then they're a musician songwriter slash producer. You know I've got a few producing gigs because I was the engineer and I had things to say and help out and you know next album they were looking for a producer and so they would ask me. So. The more things that you can do the more opportunities you'll have for you know to to make this thing work over an extended period of time. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Fantastic! Thank you! That's really good advice. So in some ways it all comes back down to being a people person collaboration. Really good words to finish this up with Jim. Thank you so much for making the time today. Jim Bonnefond Absolutely yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths Really exciting to speak to you and you know to tap into your wisdom and thank you so much I Really appreciate that she has made I'm just going to stop. Jim Bonnefond Thank you! It was my pleasure. Thank you again, Jim Bonnefond for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with the younger generation of producers. This is such an amazing story and I'm so glad that I had the chance to speak to you. I really hope there was some interesting information in today's episode for you. Jim still produces today and occasionally he takes on new projects. The links to Jim Bonnefond’s social media profiles are in the show notes. So just after finishing the episode, why don't you just scroll down and have a quick look and visit his profiles. And while you are there, please click the link to rate and review this episode. I would appreciate it if you could please spare me a few seconds of your time and click the 5 star rating button and please write a short review, that would really mean the world to me. Thank you very much for joining me today on my birthday. You have a great day, I’ll speak to you next week thank you and Bye -bye.