#044 - MARCOS MICOZZI: Creative use of VR technology for music

Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome to the Production Talk podcast with me, Yarn, of mixartist.com.au. In this podcast series, we celebrate the modern way of producing music. We want to talk about all things related to songwriting, recording at home and music production. So, if you produce your music at home, this is the place to be. Please subscribe and recommend this podcast to all your friends. This is the production talk podcast episode 44. Welcome back to another episode of the production talk podcast. Before we start, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the country, that this conversation, this interview is recorded on, the Arakwal people of the Bundjalung nation. And I'd like to pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So with me today is Mr. Marcos Micozzi, um, who just showed me an amazing project that I definitely want to talk about today. But before we get into that exciting project, I'd like to learn more about you and your musical career. So maybe just introduce yourself and tell us where you're from and what your musical background is Marcos Micozzi: Great. Thanks for having me on this is an honor. I might say, um, my name is Monica . Um, I'm a musician. I came I'm from Argentina when it's high as Argentina and I came to Australia four years ago, um, wanting to be a musician, right. I was studying architecture in Argentina, different different life. Marcos Micozzi: Although it kind of applied the six years of architecture in this Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, we'll see that later too. What's the end, I guess when The circle closes but, uh, How old were you when you first picked up an instrument when you first started learning? Marcos Micozzi: I think it was, um, I was 13 years old. I played drums. I started with drums. Yeah. I went to these kind of like after hours, little school where you would paint, you would, um, make music and you would spend. Marcos Micozzi: Each day doing something different. So I played bass and drums and paint there, which was great. I think that's where, when it all started. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Um, and, which instruments do you focus on these days? Marcos Micozzi: These days? My main focus is on synthesizes guitar and bass. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: guitar And bass and, uh, you involved in a band. Can you tell us more about that project? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: please? Marcos Micozzi: Yeah. So at the moment I'm involved in a couple of bands. Uh, one band is called. It's based in Tasmania, which is a band that focuses a lot on, on live performances. On the other hand, I'm also a part of yellow, the sun, which is, um, on the, eye-hand a band that doesn't play live, but it's just like a studio project. Marcos Micozzi: And then at the same time, I'm I make my own music, which will be released soon. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Fantastic. And are there any releases out at this stage? Marcos Micozzi: At this stage? Yes. There's one single released with holiday and there's three songs released with yellow, the sun, and one more to be released, I think, next week, which is really exciting. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Look, please pass me all the links I'd like to put them all into the show notes. So at the end of the episode, Please move on to the show notes and click and have a listen. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent. Can you describe the musical genres that you're involved with and the feel and vibe? Marcos Micozzi: Yeah, well, the band holiday it's, um, it's a mixture of, um, different styles because it's make Hitchcock who she's from London. Um, Jesse Higgs who's from Tasmania and myself. So I come from a very, um, experimental, I would say, um, genera, I like you seeing a lot of figs. I like non-conventional sounds in a way. Marcos Micozzi: Um, but being in these bands forced me to have to kind of find a middle ground between, you know, these bands and on what I want to do so that, um, that combination it's always different and it's really, really exciting. So the one holiday is more rock orientated while yellow, the sun is more psychedelic, rock orientated and electronic. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Cool. Well, that should keep you pretty busy with that many projects going on at the same time. Yeah. Cool. Um, have you got any upcoming live show? Marcos Micozzi: Let me think. Well, at the same time, I'm a DJ with my partner. We're called in the flowers and, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: another project. Yeah. Marcos Micozzi: um, and we are playing. Let me think. No, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay, well, that's fine. So if you have any shows coming? please drop an art. I throw it into the production talk Facebook community so that listeners can get a notice When, when. you have shows coming. Look, I think it's, it's really time that we quickly talk about how we met each other, what the environment is for full clarity here. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you're currently studying. Tell us more about that. Marcos Micozzi: I'm studying the bachelor of audio and . Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And that's where we met because I work there. So we have some kind of a work relationship, I would say for full disclosure here. Um, And you know, I've, I've known you for awhile. Um, You're definitely a very talented producer. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and I would just quick to talk, like to talk about how you produce your own music, if that's okay. So when you, when you walk on your projects, do you work by yourself? or do you work with external engineers, Marcos Micozzi: I usually work on. I remember the first time I recorded an album with my Argentinian band, it was called InCorp scientists and it was an experimental rock band, psychotic rock band. Marcos Micozzi: And back then we didn't have money, you know, to pay for an engineer or anything. And what do you mean you don't have much money for instruments at all? So in order to get this crazy sounds, we had to do it all over. So. So that, that albums one of the favorite albums I've done so far, it was just such a great experience. Marcos Micozzi: Uh, we had one condenser mic to record the drums. it. And then, um, that was pretty much it. And I remember getting a call from them, uh, for me to come and record synthesizes, but I had no synthesizer. I just had like an old Casio keyboard. So I put the output of the Casio into the guitar pills of the guitar. Marcos Micozzi: that's how we got all these, you know, crazy sounds like yeah. Synthesizers and phases and, and other modulation, uh, sounds that, yeah, it just blended so well with this genera and the album was done in, in the living room. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Amazing. Amazing. In obviously I want to have the link for the show notes. If that's available. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And Tell me more about the latest stages, like mixing and mastering. Did you do all of that? yourself? Marcos Micozzi: Um, definitely mixing. Yes. I'm sorry. Are you talking about the band in Argentina? Uh, we did the pre-production and pre mixing, and then we gave it to a friend of ours who did the mixing and mastering? Um, yeah, so I feel like that attitude towards audio engineering, which I didn't even know what it was back then, uh, stayed with me, you know, for all this. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. Marcos Micozzi: It's like I can, can do attitude, I guess. Like that's a motto. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And when you produce your own music today, how do you manage to be an engineer and a performer at the same time? That's two completely different mindsets. Is this something that falls naturally to you or do you sometimes find that to be challenging? Marcos Micozzi: It is they're friendly. Challenging. I still struggled with it. Um, but definitely it's important to understand that it is two different jobs and that they can't be done at the same time. You know, you have to put your producer hat at some times, and then you have to make it very evident that the job is done. Marcos Micozzi: And then we're moving into, you know, performing, um, hot or whatever you you want to use at the moment. The aide has to be different. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. So you try to separate those. jobs. As in, you know, you do the recordings in the morning and then the editing and the afternoon is that how you would practically do that or Marcos Micozzi: yeah. Marcos Micozzi: Or even days even depends, really depends on the project because at the moment, as I don't have my own studio, I usually, yeah. It keeps evolving all the time and changing. But if I would have the band with me, I would be like, all right, today, we were recording. I'm the engineer. And then the next day y'all guys, um, you know, you do your thing, I'll stay here and I'll mix it to a point and then we'll meet again and we'll, you know, produce from there. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. All right. And when you track yourself, do you find yourself in situations where you play the bass and also record yourself Marcos Micozzi: a hundred percent. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And that's where, you know, the friction points sits, I guess. you know, How do you manage that? Marcos Micozzi: Um, I didn't have any real figures. Yeah, actually, yes. I guess the frustration comes when you want something. Marcos Micozzi: Now you have an idea now and when something happens and you have to food, you know, take that hat off and put the producer or the engineer head-on and something is lost in all that. So I guess the, the aim is to have a studio set up that is really easy to use and fast, right? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. practical. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. That's, that's really important. Yeah. Okay. Cool. In what do you do to get into the right mindset for you know, mind-blowing performances? when you read any to groove, like crazy on the base, it's not something that you can just snap into straightaway. How do you get into, into the musical flow where just, you know, the best takes happen? Marcos Micozzi: Yes, it's interesting. To start with. I meditate every day that I think it's very important for me because if I don't meditate one day, I can, I can feel it. Marcos Micozzi: And I think where it starts early in the morning, as soon as I wake up. And from there, I usually like to listen to music before recording to get inspired, get, get a feeling, and then try to chase that feeling with my own before. Yeah, that's a hundred percent it, and then I literally like to go into my balcony. Marcos Micozzi: I have a really nice view outside of my house. Uh, it's a really long view. I always wanted a long view. I used to live in an apartment and the view was five meters and there was another building Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Do you want space? Marcos Micozzi: I needed space. And also I'm a loner when, when doing all these things. I, yeah, exactly. So if I want to be in that performance minded, I usually would like to be alone and, and tap into some kind of energy that could come from listening to music, or it could come from just, you know, staring at these long landscape and quietness, I guess. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. And that calms your mind. And then from there good takes seem to appear, Marcos Micozzi: To believe it before I, I can do it. I can't force it. You can't really force it. I mean, of course you find yourself sometimes having to force it because there's deadlines and I guess you get better at what you do and you can force something and it's, it's something you're happy with. Marcos Micozzi: But if you want that, you know, that extra mile, that feeling recorded into something it's the feeling is needed. It translates. So. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Good. Well, thank you for sharing. I would like to sort of gradually steer towards the project that you just completed, which we've spoken about before. And I probably need to explain what's going on. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What's the name of the projects. Marcos Micozzi: What's the name of the project? It's um, it's like a big, it's like an umbrella project that has inside multiple projects. I would say. So the umbrella project is, um, simulated environments because it's kind of you're somewhere, but you're not really there in a way. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Well, that doesn't make sense yet. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So we have to break this into little sections and take a step to step. So you created sounds in a different way. Can you explain? Marcos Micozzi: So I use a Neve custom 75 recording company. And I use it, some would say the wrong way to create a sound that, um, it's not ideal, it's a feedback loop. And then I found a way to manipulate that sound and make it sound like a sound were familiar with. Marcos Micozzi: And in that process, I created an instrument that I can perform with. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you're saying you turned in an analog Neve console, into an instrument. Marcos Micozzi: Exactly Jan 'Yarn' Muths: through using feedback. So how practically, how do you do that practically? Marcos Micozzi: How do I do the feedback? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes, Marcos Micozzi: So I route the output of CNL into its same input. So I use pro tools for that. Marcos Micozzi: I send a signal to pro tools and then I send it back into the same challenge. Then you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Great. Marcos Micozzi: Creates a loop and that grades really annoying sound. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. So that's a feedback loop and that's usually what everybody tries to avoid And If you've been in a studio before, you know, most people have accidentally patched something, it caused feedback. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And nobody liked that It's engineers try very hard not to do because it makes us engineers look bad. in front of clients. So we don't want to do that. We don't want to have that in live sound, either when you know, monitors, and microphones start to feed back And you actually took it electronically and patched it back into itself. So can you describe how it sounds when a general module feeds back? Marcos Micozzi: It sounds like, um, a painful soared into your ears. How could you describe it? It's a piercing sound. Yeah. It's um, it's thin and thick at the same time. I don't think we're meant to listen to that for, for too long, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Marcos Micozzi: but then yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: All right. And then I noticed that when I looked at the concert yesterday, you had the labels on the channel strips and usually where we place labels, or kick, and snare. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And so on, you had labels that actually identified a musical note. Marcos Micozzi: Exactly. Explain. Well, um, so these technique of using feedback loops is called no input mixing. And it's interesting. And I've seen a lot of people do it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: then Marcos Micozzi: You can get these feedback loops and then crazy sounds can start to happen. But what I thought it was interesting about my project is the process of, you know, we come from a mindset of musical scales, but then we focus on those nodes that are not a C, not a D you know, that the sharp those in between noises, that they're nothing at the moment. Marcos Micozzi: And no one looks at them and we explore them, but then we bring them back. To where we can understand. So in a way where we're at the same point of, you know, where we started, we're playing a C, C major chord in a way, but there's a whole process that happened in between that. And I think that's, um, the heart of the project in a way. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So H How did you get it? Shannon module that feeds back through you know, connecting the output back to the input? How do you get that to to sound as a C How do you get a pitch out of that? You know, It's it's just a squealing noise. at this stage. Marcos Micozzi: It is, um, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So Marcos Micozzi: I realized that by engaging different, um, pods of the console, that sound would change, right? So it was a process of unlearning what we have learned. Marcos Micozzi: So if I, for example, engage the ACU on that channel, suddenly it acts as an Okta pill and it goes to an octave higher and suddenly the gain pod is a fine tuning port. And then if you engage the low Cod button, it accesses tremolo, which is crazy. But it actually works like that. It's Jan 'Yarn' Muths: definitely not what anybody intended when this console was built. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It looked, you know, I I know a little bit about the inner workings of this console as I was deeply involved in the build of it. but Nobody foresaw these things. happening ever. So Marcos Micozzi: exciting. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Let's say, you know, you, do patch it, back into itself, a year. Marcos Micozzi: sound, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You, I believe you had a. Marcos Micozzi: It's you're Jan 'Yarn' Muths: going, is that correct? Yes. So one of the two and I know shows it's a bit flat or something. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, how do you change that? How do you know, go in and tune that? up? A couple of cents Marcos Micozzi: I know that if on the FAQ section, if you moved, I go to, I got very, very intimate with the machine SharePoint for, I know exactly what port I need to move in order to do a fine tuning to certain degree. And if I want to go from a C to an a, I know that these other port is like a faster, fine tuning. Marcos Micozzi: Um, um, I know if I changed the frequency on the high frequencies, a queue that is going to yeah. Pretty much allow me to fine tune. I don't know if I'd explained it properly. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So by engaging it and playing with this, you experimented a notice that the overall pitch went up into or down a couple of cents. And Marcos Micozzi: Exactly. I think it comes from, you know, when you first see a guitar. Marcos Micozzi: It's completely alien. Like how can you, how can you explain someone how it is, how it works, but we're somehow familiar with it because of the amount of time we spend with it. And, you know, generations spend time with it. This is the same in the end is it's an instrument. It's just, it doesn't work in a way we were taught things work. Marcos Micozzi: So if you spend enough time with it and become familiar with its patterns and behaviors, then it just becomes as natural explaining, playing the guitar, I guess. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Right. Oh, and how many different channel modules did you use and how many different pitches did you get? Marcos Micozzi: I use two octaves and I usually use only the white keys of a keyboard. Marcos Micozzi: So that's no, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: eight notes. Yeah. Times two octave. So 16. Marcos Micozzi: Exactly. And no sharps or flats. Okay. Just for me. So it's easier to, to perform with it, but. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: by patching The output spec into the inputs. they all sound at the same time. And if I imagine, you know, all the 10 keys plate of two octaves at the same time, that's not what we want to hear. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's not a pleasing sound. So how did you then manage to play just specific notes? Marcos Micozzi: Um, so I realized that initially I wanted to use the failures to perform, but then even if I had all the failures that. The sound still, I could still hear the sound of all of them at the same time. So I had to find another way of, of doing that. Marcos Micozzi: And I realized that if I had all the freighters up, but I was monitoring the oxygen three, for example. And then I had all the ox 3 cents to a certain level, and then only by activating it, um, the sound would come out, but then if I had nothing pressed, no sun would come. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. So in other words, you want actually listening through the normal signal flow of a consoler from the feta to the mixing bus, to the left-right mix, to the speakers instead, you just used an ox end Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And that was connected to the speakers and the way this console is built, it's got an on, off switch for the ox. Marcos Micozzi: Which would be a dream. Actually, if someone could change that to a latch mode, is it large when you. Just price and then it's sent, and then when you take it out, it's Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I think you mean moment Momentary let's is what it is at the moment So you press it once it stays on until you press it again. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And you want momentary. So How good are you in writing software? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: The software engineer who programmed the software for this console. Um, I know him, he's his name is Greg. He lives in Poland, He worked for Dolby laboratories after. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: programming the software for the custom series 75. Yeah, I'm still in touch with them every so often, but I don't think he's actively involved in the software development these days. So uh, I'm sorry to disappoint here. I don't think that's a feature. You'll see anytime soon. Marcos Micozzi: damn I'll have to, I'll have to learn how to write softwares. That's the next step. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay, so, all right. I can visualize this. Now you've got, you know, 12 channel models in front of you, and now you go to the ox and on off switches and that allows you to activate certain notes and play, Let's say, you know, three notes for a major court or something like that. Or you could even play a melody if you want it to. Okay. Good. And then it comes out of a monologue. So. Marcos Micozzi: Yes, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: but that's not where you stopped. You went further. Yeah. So I believe at this stage, you know, the idea of, um, what is it called again, Uh, no no input mixer, is that, what's got no input mixing. W what was your inspiration to get to this point? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Who inspired you to to build. you know, a not input mixer using the Neve console? Marcos Micozzi: I guess the first one was, uh, Phillip champagne with his project squeal, where he explores these already. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes, That is a big project and a big shout out to our mate. Phil I've known Phil for a long time. He was actually at my best mate at, at my wedding. That's how close I know him and how well I know. him. And I'm definitely going to put a link to his project, into the show notes. It's Crazy stuff. Definitely check it out. Okay. So. That's what some of the inspiration, but then you took it much, much further. So the signal came out of this monarchs and you didn't stop there. What was the next stage for for the signal? Marcos Micozzi: the next stage is, um, so the signal is beautiful. You create a cord and you can actually hear it. And it's a really nice sound, but it was a bit static for me. Marcos Micozzi: I was like, okay, where do we go from here? It's Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I Marcos Micozzi: like, um, monotonous in a sense. I have a Yamaha CS, five synthesizer that has an external lien. So I thought of grabbing the CNL, send it into the externally of the synthesizer and then use the filters and allophones to modify the sound. So that opens a whole new world for me, because I can filter this out. Marcos Micozzi: I can give it movements by, um, putting, um, the, for engaging the LFO. And then of course, from there, it is really. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. So the synthesize is actually not use to play any notes. You didn't use the keyboards, but just an external. And then you use the controls that you have They're all, I believe analog controls Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: To modify the sound. And how did it change? How would you describe the sound before? and after? What what were you able to do? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: How did the sound change in timbre? Marcos Micozzi: Pretty much I'm able to at Q it really, it is that it is, um, I'm applying a filter to it. I need allows me to. To bring the sound, you know, more to the back or bring it more to the front in a way. So it allows it to interact with other elements in a more dynamic way. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I See, I see. And if I remember correctly, you also played additional elements. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: In addition to the synthesized uh, console, no input sound. like, I think There was a drumbeat. Is that right. Where was that? coming? Marcos Micozzi: I had a role in tra um, and that's just a drum machine. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And at what stage did you blend these signals together? Where they arriving bakes together at the synthesizer stage or where they some later? Marcos Micozzi: So actually it's going through a couple more things. Marcos Micozzi: It doesn't end at the, at the scene, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: okay. Okay. so I was just getting ahead of oneself. Okay. Do You take over, please. What's the next stage after the synthesizer? Marcos Micozzi: After, after a synthesizer, the output goes towards, um, a DEI and then on the DEI, I have, um, you know, the balance XLR output and that goes onto my interface. So that's we, I call that the dry sound because yeah, it is filtered acute, but it doesn't have any, you know, reverbs or. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay, so back to the synthesizer. So it came out, then you split it and you got the unprocessed into it back into your computer, where you have software control Marcos Micozzi: I mean, it Jan 'Yarn' Muths: or interface Marcos Micozzi: it is processed by the synthesizer, so it's filtered acute and that is what I call my dry signal. But then the other, um, the other end of the signal that I splayed goes into the space, echo RA. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's a Roland unit. That's a tape loop machine. Okay. Marcos Micozzi: Exactly Jan 'Yarn' Muths: old school. Analog tape echo. Okay. With, so What did you do with that? Marcos Micozzi: So then what I do is I, I engage the reverb and the delay and the chorus. So it, it allows me to give a sense of spatiality to these sound, you know, and to put it somehow in, in space. Marcos Micozzi: And it also allows me to. To change cords and the change not to be too abrupt, but it kind of glues everything together in my, the way I think, but it doesn't end there because the space echo output goes to my guitar pedals, um, which I have, um, blue star by distortion Diam on by Brido on eighties, um, small stone, electro harmonics, phaser, and I also have another river just because it's. Marcos Micozzi: Uh, the, the holy grail. Yeah. From Electra mornings. And then I have, um, carbon copy delay by MXR. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Yeah, That's a lot of effects. I hope you didn't use all of them at the same time Marcos Micozzi: slightly. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you did. Okay. Well you took it to town. Good. Yeah. All right. Um, explain what a difference that made in sound. So when it came out on the other end, Marcos Micozzi: So pretty much, I was able to separate a dry signal from a wet signal, but not only that I, I could choose one kind of steady coy. I wanted on my wet signal. I wanted, if I wanted the chorus from the Ari 5 0 1, I had it. If I wanted to create, um, you know, feedback on the. I could do it, but I could also create feedback on my carbon copy MXR delay pill, which I love the feedback and grades, and then engaging the facer would allow me to create different kind of as low modulation or a fast modulation. Marcos Micozzi: So it just allowed me to have one plain sound and show it to people in a thousand different ways. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. So that will be a heavily effected sound. But I remember that just a couple of steps before you said you split it and one dry, our fate went into your computer and we're not following the effected path you know? So you have now two parallel versions of it. Yes. Okay. Keep going. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. I think I got it. Marcos Micozzi: Okay. So that's um, the scene path would be that one would be a dry single that's, acute where I can filter it. And then there's the wet signal where I have, you know, a lot of choices, uh, to modify that sound. So that's. That's what the scene is, and that's how I make it, you know, dynamic and changing constantly. Marcos Micozzi: So people don't get, you know, it's not in static sound. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I see. How do you blend between the two parallel streams? Marcos Micozzi: Um, how do I blend them? So that happens in virtual reality. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Uh, okay. Wow. Okay. We haven't even gone there yet because that big becomes the next part. So, So far we've had, you know, the no input mixer synthesizer. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Then we had the synthesizer that was used as a filter unit. Then you split it, then you put it through D tape delays and then through an entire chain of effects, pedals. Marcos Micozzi: yes, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That was just summed up so far. Please keep going. So, and that's not complex enough, you took it to the next level. What's the next level? Marcos Micozzi: Well, there's still more on the level before because we have the drum machine. Marcos Micozzi: So there's even more so we have the drum machine. I'll be fast on this one. Um, so the drum machine is just a tra, which, um, goes, is connected to an analog echo. It's a roll and DC 20 and these analog echo again, it allows me to. the aesthetic of the, of the drum drum beat. I usually use it just to create a feedback also. Marcos Micozzi: So I just drive it and then this feedback happens and then I bring it back. And it's just a way again, to make the drums more dynamic and not like constantly doing the same because I'm, I'm busy doing all the beautiful reality stuff. So I need a way to quickly. You know, change sounds and then bring them back to where they are. Marcos Micozzi: If, if that explains itself, see? Yeah. Instead. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. Yes. I think I'm getting my head around it. I'm not entirely sure yet how all these different segments meet up and come back together. But I Think you were heading this way. on you. Marcos Micozzi: I am. So they all made on my windows computers. So it's a two computer set up, right. One computer has pro tools, which creates a fever. Marcos Micozzi: But now where everything gets recorded, which would be the tape tape machine is on a windows computer where I have the visual reality software. So all of that goes into Scarlet, um, interface. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And how many different inputs were you using for that? interface? Marcos Micozzi: For the, eh, sorry. Yes. Four different inputs. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Just So I wrap my head around. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: it. Can you just name all of them again? Just to, Marcos Micozzi: I had the dry synth. I had the wet synth. Yep. I had the drum machine and then there's another input, which is a microphone on the piano, in the live room. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. So up to this point, all of this was basically set up in the control room. Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. And then another From the life room that was in the microphone, aiming at a mini grand piano. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Got it. I see. Marcos Micozzi: this is where the Neve scene ends and the simulated environments begin. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And that no closes the circle to where we started. When you introduce the simulated environment. Now we're entering this area. Open the door, show us what's in there. Marcos Micozzi: Okay. So this is, um, a project where I, I explore technology pretty much, and I wanted to see how the new synthesizers or interacted with. Marcos Micozzi: Other elements, other technologies. So I was thinking how interesting it would be to meet these, um, old, not old, the customer 75 it's it's new-ish, um, console, but it's old technology in a way it's analog Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yes. Marcos Micozzi: and meeting it with the most advanced groundbreaking, uh, technology of virtual reality. So I wanted a way to manipulate sound in space and all the options I kept coming up. Marcos Micozzi: Allowed me to do it to an extent, but I had to use the mouse on my computer to do it. And I thought that was kind of restricting me creatively in my performance until I came across DVR, which is a German software company that creates these, um, spatial plugins. But they have one that's called spatial connect that allows you to put, um, mutual reality heads. Marcos Micozzi: And actually see a world where you can see sound and move it with your own hands. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. So by see and move, is that like, I just imagined myself you know, taking the mouse on my computer, I click on a folder and move it from left to right. on the desktop into another folder. Is this how? what I need to imagine? Marcos Micozzi: Yeah, same, same, but just imagine you have a beer show, reality headset on so you can see anything of your reality. Marcos Micozzi: You're just in these, um, crazy world. It's all pretty much gray, but it allows you to see the sound sources, objects, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: no object that says drums, another one that says synthesizer. Yep. Got it. Marcos Micozzi: And you can point at them and clique with your hand controls Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Marcos Micozzi: and then move it in space and determine if you wanted, you know, closer to you further away from me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's not something I can do with the most on my desktop. So you know, you can do left right motion. And if I understand correctly, that would actually lead to left-right panning. And What you hear is that right? if you move, let's say the drums from left to right, but you can also move them closer and further away. So like in a three-dimensional space, is that Marcos Micozzi: correct? Exactly. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. So and how does that practical work? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You've got these virtual reality glasses on that's where you see it. Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And how do you now grab an item and move it an object, I believe. you call it. How do you, how do you do that? what device do you use for that? Marcos Micozzi: Exactly. So you have to, um, handsets also that control where you are, how your hands move, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you Marcos Micozzi: and then imutual reality. You can see them and they are, um, always pointing forward. Marcos Micozzi: Right? So as you move it and you aim to the sound source, one of the buttons, and then it's kind of, you're grabbing the sound and with the joystick, you can bring it closer to you or further away from you, or you can just move it left to ride, and that will all that information will translate into your headphones. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Okay. It's starting to, you know, or connect and make sense. Um, tell me about the process of getting there. Is this in pre-existing technology where you just download a business object, click The button that everything worked no far from it. Yeah. So how do you, how do you connect these worlds? Tell me more about that. Marcos Micozzi: well, I, I emailed the OVR and I, I asked if, uh, you know, Be happy to help me create this project. And they, they said yes. So they sent me all the, the software for free, which I'm really grateful for. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Big shout out. Let's let's add a link to the show notes as well, Marcos Micozzi: a hundred percent, a Jan 'Yarn' Muths: definitely had a tag Marcos Micozzi: And to be honest, there's support team was the best support team I ever dealt with. They were so helpful. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: well, Marcos Micozzi: Every time I came across an answer, they would, um, answer to me straight away with, um, you know, options. They were just fantastic. It was a pleasure to go through so many issues, you know, because of my, um, this is new technology and having a support team supporting you. Marcos Micozzi: Okay. So then, um, software wise, I had this offer is only available for windows computers, and I'm not a windows computers user. So I came across a lot of, um, issues when installing the software. Um, just because of, uh, I'm out of practice on windows, I need requires for a lot of, you know, processes to be done for the software to, to work. Marcos Micozzi: And yeah, I had to install the DRB R pro, which is a plugin that you put on the channels on your door. And then I had to install spacial connect, which is the breach between your door and your headset. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, well, okay. Marcos Micozzi: So Jan 'Yarn' Muths: you had to make quite a few different pieces of software work together in harmony. Marcos Micozzi: Yes. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. I see where that would be challenging. Okay. So, and why you were doing all of this, you were using headphones I believe. is that Correct. And you could hear what you were doing, moving signals in space. So in other words, you were pretty much like a conductor grabbing elements, moving them around and you could hear. by headphones in Real time, what happens? So you are performing like a dance, sort of. Um, that's amazing. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's amazing. But it didn't end here. Marcos Micozzi: It didn't end there. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It didn't end there at all. so then you prepared the entire life room for some kind of an walk through experience. So there were people coming through, experiencing what you were doing. Can You describe from an audience members point of view. What would their walk through be? Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What would they see at what stage? and how did they experience Marcos Micozzi: Yes. So I wanted the experience to be like telling a story. I wanted, um, the pathway as you work to be revealing pods of the other elements of the exhibition, but not fully. So you, it created kind of a curiosity on you. So as you walk in, and the first thing that was showcasing was the document. Marcos Micozzi: Uh, about how I created the new synthesizer, which was showed by Jacob Drew's, which is an amazing filmmaker. So that was the first stage they could grab the, sorry, they could grab their headphones and listen to the whole documentary, which is, you know, five minutes documentary. After that they could see there was a mini grand piano and. Marcos Micozzi: There were the headphones on the side of the piano. So these were wireless Jan 'Yarn' Muths: wireless headphones. Yeah. Marcos Micozzi: So you could, you needed to put the headphones on and you didn't really, you weren't aware yet of the virtual reality aspect of it. It was just a piano. I need represents kind of the, you know, the need synthesizer in a way, because it's analog and it's the roots of, of sound source. Marcos Micozzi: So they're asked to play any of the white keys on the piano and. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: they play Marcos Micozzi: I'm in the other room, seeing the signal and I grab it, I'm moving in space. So suddenly they're playing the piano and suddenly the piano is behind them. Suddenly it's in front of them. 10 leads on the left, on the ride, which creates kind of a confusion. Marcos Micozzi: And I would have loved to see the phases, you know, talking with each other and not understanding what's happening. Then from there, they move into the next stage, which is a projection of what I actually see on my virtual reality headset. So there. They're looking at what I see. And at the same time they can see the piano perform. Marcos Micozzi: So there is where I feel like they start to understand what's happening. They understand there's someone manipulating the sound in space and it is connected to, um, whatever the piano player is doing. And they understand that this way they are part of the, of the exhibition, right. They're both audience and performance, which makes it really special. Marcos Micozzi: And then from there you would move on to the next stage, which is, um, in front of the control room, whether it's a big, really big a window where you can actually see me performing, see where, you know, these two worlds meet, which is in the performance. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Okay. That's quite a journey. That's quite a journey. You know, I, I did this walk and be entire live from was pretty dark. You had some very tasteful lighting and it was all separated. You use baffles, to literally create a walkthrough. Through big live from through different stages and it was actually quite an experience I have to admit. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It was, um, quite impressive. Wow. And, okay. So my understanding is that there was also a video video. photography Capturing what you were doing and you are taking this snow until you get another, What is that going to be here to describe? What, what, what are you going to do with, with what the video. Marcos Micozzi: Well, I wanted to create, continue this exploration of the new synthesizer in different environments. So the first documentary is about how it was graded. Marcos Micozzi: These non gonna create this part, two of the documentary, where it is, um, explaining how this exhibition worked and how the new synthesizer. Related and worked with virtual reality. So the meeting of these two technologies, and it is a lot about also the audience and the audience role in discovering what is happening. Marcos Micozzi: I think that's, that's really a drive. I mean, making the story right. And then the experience more and more interesting. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: wow. This is probably the most complex student project that I've ever seen in all honesty. Um, technically definitely a huge, huge challenge. And I really admire how you managed to to perform creatively at the end of it. Marcos Micozzi: So Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You got out of that technical mindset and transform, transformed back into a creative um, yeah. Musician. definitely musician, because you were making music in a very unconventional way. So, um, that's, that's really interesting. I've, I've found that mindblowing So. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, well done. Good on ya. Marcos Micozzi: Thank you very much. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And look, I'm really curious to see what the future brings for you. You know, these kinds of ideas, you know, that's gonna open doors uh, Marcos Micozzi: somewhere, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And people will notice, I'm I'm sure. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So I'm, I'm curious to see what your future path will bring, but keep up this curiosity. That's really good. That's really good. You Know that's how progress is made, I guess, uh, breaking old conventions and Doing things that were not meant to be done. So that's, that's, really inventive. Marcos Micozzi: that's it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing. I Marcos Micozzi: you for having Jan 'Yarn' Muths: wish you all the best for your, for your path ahead. Marcos Micozzi: Thank you. Thank you so much for homie. This was so much fun. I hope. Um, you came across clear. It's very hard to grab it with words. Marcos Micozzi: I feel Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I know, I know, but uh, I think we did a pretty good job trying to decipher. it all and break into parts. Okay, Good. Thanks for your time. Marcus. I really appreciate Marcos Micozzi: Thanks. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. This might've been the most technical episode we've done so far. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this. Uh, for me it was absolutely amazing, um, crazy stuff. So I'd like to encourage all business to be creative and don't take by the box technology workflows as a given, it is sometimes meant to be misused and misuse can lead to. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Uh, new discoveries. Many of the things we do today are actually coming from places of misuse, like guitar distortion, which was a big, big no-no back then or playing an open high hat. It was frowned upon as an can't do plank. Who knows what happens next? Um, so the cross section between technology and creativity is a really exciting place for me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So explore this and see what you can come up with. There's definitely a lot of amazing things to be discovered. And, uh, MarkWest has showed us in an amazing example how this can be done. So if you're not a technical minded person, every once in a while, you may need some help with technical stuff. So if you're ever stuck with your product, And you struggle to get it to the finish line. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Please reach out to me via mixed artists.com U I love helping musicians achieving their creative goals and guiding their music projects to the finish. And I'd love to hear from you, check it out. Mix artists.com that I do. I would also really appreciate. If you could please hit the subscribe button in your podcast application and, uh, pretty close to the subscribe button. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You will also find, um, the writing buttons or a five-star review. What really means the world to me. Thank you so much. This is all for today. I'm looking forward to speaking to you again next week before.