#056 - ADAM GARDINER: Drums, Recording and Monetising Music with Sync Licensing

Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome to the Production Talk podcast with me, Yarn, of mixartists.com.au. In this podcast series, we celebrate the modern way of producing music. We want to talk about all things related to songwriting, recording at home and music production. So, if you produce your music at home, this is the place to be. Please subscribe and recommend this podcast to all your friends. This is the Production Talk Podcast episode 56. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Welcome back to another episode of the Production Talk Podcast at the beginning, as always, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the country that we are meeting on today, the Arakwal people of the Bundjalong nation. And I would like to pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Much respect. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: With me today is Mr. Adam Gardener. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Adam Gardiner: Great. Thank you. Thanks for having. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You are very, very welcome. So it's a special time for you. It was actually, you know, on the fence, whether we would be able to meet today or not some exciting things are happening. Are you happy to, to talk about that? Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're referring to, there are, are four days remaining until the due date of my first child arriving. So yeah. Very excited. Very pumped. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Whoa. Adam Gardiner: all the emotions at once. It's yeah, it's exciting. I feel ready. I'm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Could happen any moment. So you might get a phone call in the middle of this interview, who knows. Adam Gardiner: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I forgot to mention that before my phone's not on silent because of that reason. So Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yep. You are forgiven. Adam Gardiner: yeah. Thank you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that's perfectly fine. Well, look, there's a good chance by the time this episode is released your child is already there. Fingers crossed all the best. You never know, exciting time. So I really appreciate you making time at this tense time of your life. Adam Gardiner: ah, my pleasure. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Let's talk about you and your musical career. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: You are a drummer. What made you pick up the drumsticks? How old were you when you decided that you needed to hit things? Rhythmically? Adam Gardiner: Yeah, well look, I, I, I'm in the Northern rivers now, but I'm from the gold coast and I guess it's interesting. I've never really stopped and thought about why drums. I think many, it's this a similar story for many drummers, right? You just sort of drawn to it. And before, you know, it you're hitting pots and pans and cushions and all that kind of thing around the house. Adam Gardiner: But I, I didn't really start like formal training, let's say until I was about 12. And I was lucky I had a really, really great drum teacher who just sort of, I think the biggest lesson he taught me was. Like you just need to put the time and experience in behind the drums. In other words, say yes to any opportunity that you have, even if it's something you, you're not really into like a concert band or something like that. Adam Gardiner: I wasn't particularly pumped about joining, but I signed up just to get the experience and put the time in. And I think that's one, you mentioned tips and tricks and stuff like that. That's one like very valuable piece of advice. Yeah, I was just, I think I, I picked it up quite quickly and was very, became very serious about it and was practicing a lot every day. Adam Gardiner: It was a funny situation at home. My room's sort of in the middle of the house. So when you open the window from my room, it's into the living room, where, which is where my drums were set up. So I would literally sometimes as a, we're talking like 12, 13, I'd just roll outta bed, jump out my window onto the drum kit and just start practicing. like straight away. I was just that keen. Yeah. And it's kind of funny on the gold coast around that time, we're talking like sort of early two thousands. Drumming competitions were like a big thing, like a big deal for a teenager at the time. And I entered a lot of them and I guess that sort of showed me. Adam Gardiner: The value of goal setting and working towards your goals, that kind of thing. And of course you're learning. I was learning really technical. Like I was very into the Dave weel band. If anyone there is Dave weel Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, yeah. Adam Gardiner: And I was just like, oh man. Yeah, I was pumped on weel and just learning, I just, by the album. Adam Gardiner: And back in those days, you could buy the, the book with the backing tracks for the whole album and it would have all the charts for all the songs in it. And I would basically just learn all this really technical repertoire and enter these drumming competitions. And like that sort of becomes your identity as a teenager. Adam Gardiner: Like when you start doing well at something, be it sport or some, any other endeavor for me, it was drums. And that really just became part of my identity, which I think was such a, such a beautiful thing to reflect on and realize. How important that actually was to my life back then. But yeah, there there's photos of me as a kid and it looks like, looks like I'm some athlete or something. Adam Gardiner: Cause there's all these medals and trophies. And like, cuz I just won. I won a lot of them. And it kind of gave me the drive to, to keep winning and keep pushing further and setting new goals, that kind of thing. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, fantastic. Look, I started as a young drummer, but you made some better decisions than I did because I wasn't really, I didn't have the discipline practicing and I just, you know, kept on playing fast and loud. Basically the things that are already new and, and never really got anywhere. So I guess that explains, you know, why you are still a successful drama these days. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So can you shine some light on, on the projects you are currently involved with? Adam Gardiner: Well, I mean as a drummer in the local area, I'm playing a lot with local cover bands and a few a few various artists around the, around the traps. But really my main focus when I'm making music from home, it's all about sync licensing. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Adam Gardiner: So I'm working with various let's call them publishers, or, I mean, maybe we should call 'em companies. Adam Gardiner: There are companies out there that are looking to work with people that make music. So they can pitched that music to TV, to video games, to films, to advertising, that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's been a big focus over the last, I'd say probably three years. I've been on the journey of trying to do it quite seriously. Adam Gardiner: And it's been working out so far. I mean, I'm still on the journey, I'm still building and growing. But yeah, so. those projects and that looks like it looks like a few different things. I'll unpack it a bit further. So it might, it might be a company might ask me to make an album. And when I say album, it's not gonna be a commercially released album that everyone can just listen to on Spotify. Adam Gardiner: It's more like they've heard. This show is looking for a song that sounds like X, Y, Z. And we want you to make 10 tracks that sound like X, Y, Z, so we can pitch them heaps and heaps of music. And then they release. Album, but through their own sort of pipelines. And it goes out to other publishers and people that are making shows and advertising and that kind of thing. Adam Gardiner: So it can look like that, but it can also look like you get an email and it's a similar thing. Oh, we heard this. Show's looking for this music, but we need it tomorrow. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, Adam Gardiner: you make, yeah, well, tomorrow's probably. Like the smallest window I've ever had, but it can often, you can often be sent something Friday afternoon and they need it by Monday morning. Adam Gardiner: That kind of thing. I mean more recently, some briefs are, are having deadlines of about two weeks, which is a bit nicer. gives you time to create a bit differently and kind of take a bit more time with it. But that's mainly what I do. And there is, I mean, the bottom of the barrel. Adam Garner the artist who has some music on Spotify, but really, I mean, there's, I've got some new music coming out in October and that's really the first step towards the artist journey. Adam Gardiner: But I haven't really thought of myself as the artist until this first step that I'm just doing now. So yeah, mostly all sync licensing and music for other people who need it, which I think that. My general demeanor and personality really well though. Like I feel really lucky to have found this little niche within the music world that seems to just fit the way I'm wired really well. Adam Gardiner: I really like making something for someone else and them validating me by saying, oh, great job. we need that. Yeah. And even, even like the, the fast deadlines I think lights me up. Like, if, if you told me, oh, make one song and you've got like a month to make it. I don't know how well I do. making that song. Adam Gardiner: If you tell me you've got a weekend to make it, I'm like, yes, let's go guns blazing. And I think that's got something to do with like the limitations you set when you're being creative. I seem to work really well in, in certain limitations. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I just need to dig a little bit deeper. You shared so much amazing stuff already, and I just wanna rewind a few steps and just just talk about sync licensing just for a little bit longer. So let me just. Expand it back to you and please correct me if I got it. So when you use sync license, sing the songs, don't actually go to apple music and Spotify and the typical distribution channels. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But instead they go to other websites and they sell the license to use your music onto, let's say TV shows YouTubers places like there is podcasts, I guess. And you are actually not really selling your music. The, the people buy a license to use it. Adam Gardiner: Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And you can also sell it onto many people. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you could let's say not sell a license for 50 bucks, but if you sell it to 20 people that buys your lunch or two. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Excellent. Excellent. So Adam Gardiner: I would add in certain cases it sort of depends. On your agreement and what sort of contract you've signed, that kind of thing. Cause in certain cases you can also put the music up on Spotify as well. And in fact, the only music I have on Spotify is that, that agreement. Adam Gardiner: So if you look me up on Spotify, I've got like some Christmas music, which I wrote for. A publisher who was wanting Christmas music, but they also allowed me to put it up for streaming as well, just under my own, under my own artist's name. And there's yeah, there's other, whatever music you find. Adam Gardiner: That's Adam Gardner it's it's that type of deal. So it's, it's out with a publisher in the publishing world, but it's. Out on the streaming platforms as well. Yeah. Do you mind if I go one layer deeper with sync licensing? I feel there's something important to say mainly cuz you've used the word sites and I know you've mentioned in your monetizing music episode. Adam Gardiner: Places like pond five and the music bed, there's heaps out there. There's like audio jungle. There's art. And these are all music libraries that are generally non exclusive. And anyone from the public can just go to the website and sift through, pick a song and license it. And typically we would call these places micro sync. Adam Gardiner: And I guess they would be more used for social media podcasts, indie films, people's wedding videos, things like that. And yeah, we label that micro sync. And a lot of those places are non-exclusive meaning you could have your song say in art list, non exclusively, and you could have that same song in audio jungle, non exclusively, the music bed, non exclusively, et cetera, et cetera. Adam Gardiner: And these places, they also have exclusive music as well. So if you have a song in the music bed and it's non exclusive, A client's gonna come to the music bed and say, Hey, we need a track for such and such and the music bed's gonna pitch their exclusive stuff to them. So I think that's really important to point out. Adam Gardiner: Yes, non exclusive is cool. Cuz you can spread around your tracks to all these different places. But they generally just sit there and become more of this micro sync world where people have to go to the site and find it and license it. And normally that ends up being sort of the smaller. Syncs like social media, et cetera. Adam Gardiner: I just thought that was important to point out. If a company has exclusive music, they're gonna be pitching that cuz you know, they want to have the coolest bestest music that only they have and clients have to go to them to get it. And yeah, for me, I've been on the journey about three years and I've been fortunate enough to find about 50 placements. Adam Gardiner: In reality TV and all of those have come from this exclusive deal with places. I don't have any non exclusive music actually anywhere. So there are other companies as well out there that don't do any micro sync. And these are the ones that yes, you can visit their website and it'll say what they do and it'll show all their featured placements and the work they've done and stuff. Adam Gardiner: People from just members of the public, can't go there and license their music. It's more set up for kind of clients go to them and reach out to them. And yeah, it's, it's really worth doing your research and finding out what area of sync licensing do you want to focus on? Me personally, I'm focusing on reality TV. Adam Gardiner: So. All the companies, all the publishers that I work with, I make sure that they have a lot of client base and a lot of connections in the reality TV world. And there's ones that kind of specialize in video games. There's ones that specialize in advertising. There's ones that just do albums, like I said earlier, and there's ones that just do like custom music and a lot of work spec work and that kind of thing. Adam Gardiner: Just lastly. I think it's worth pointing out the reason I'm playing all the instruments and doing all the recording and being the one man bands doing it all myself is cuz it's kind of important as well in this line of work to be what we call one stop as in, if someone needs to legally. Clear the rights to license a song you've made, but actually there's like five other writers say you've split the, the songwriting copyright with members of your band. Adam Gardiner: Each, every member of the band, all five people would have to sign off when a track gets licensed. So in my case, I'm doing it all myself. So I own a hundred percent of the, the songwriting and the publishing and the sound recording. All those rights are mine. So when I work with the publisher, it's just me that has to sign off. Adam Gardiner: If you can imagine. Sure. There's time pressures for me to make the music, but even the people that are making the shows, there's an even greater time pressure. The poor, like music editor has got like a producer telling him, like, we need this episode finished right now. And you know, he's, he's gotta like splice all the music together and everything underneath, and he's kind of picking the songs and say there's a choice between one song and it's got a bunch of splits and like five people have to sign off. Adam Gardiner: But then there's my song there and it's just me. I'm one stop. I just sign it. Or my publisher just signs it. That's really important as well, be make sure you're one stop. Even if there's a bunch of writers, put something in writing saying that only one person can sign on behalf of everyone, something like that's gonna be really helpful in the sync space. Adam Gardiner: Definitely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Right. And do you find that the music that you publish on, on sync platforms is that sort of seasonal? Does it get picked up straight away after you release it and then it abs out and you don't get much traction or is this ongoing, do you know, do people still buy licenses to sync your music over the years to come. Adam Gardiner: It's a yeah. Great question. It's a bit of, bit of both worlds. But I think for me, that brings up the concept of longevity. in the music you're giving these. These places, cuz yeah, it could be sitting there for like 10 years before it gets picked up. And you hear, you hear that, those sort of stories in this world all the time? Adam Gardiner: I know a friend of mine who's in this same space. Told me the other day. Oh, I get paid monthly still for songs I wrote seven years ago. That kind of thing. But yeah, and then sometimes you can give a publisher a song and then we'll get picked up straight away. Yeah. That can also happen. But the idea, the idea is kind of like I listened to your, I've listened to a few of your episodes, great podcast. Adam Gardiner: I I'm so pumped to find you. But I've listened to some of your episodes and you talked. Royalties how it's like a dripping tap that slowly kind of gets larger and larger and becomes more substantial. And that's definitely the same for sync licensing. The more it's about growing a big catalog of music. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's right. It's it's like a long term investment. Yeah. I'm just looking at the number of the episode that you refer to. And I, I know. Other podcasts where the host always knows every single content on of every episode by heart. I'm not that person, but I think it was somewhere in the twenties. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Just trying to look this up at the same time, but I would say it was probably 23 about monetizing music. I hope I don't stand corrected here. Adam Gardiner: Yeah, no, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: my own podcast Adam Gardiner: I think you're right. Cuz I listened to that one and I listened to your one as well. I think you Jan 'Yarn' Muths: with Nikki. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. That was a great episode. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yes. Nikki's fantastic. Yes. Adam Gardiner: I've just thought of something else though. Can I, can I add to this whole sync licensing chat? Adam Gardiner: There are, I kind of see it in two separate pathways. So the pathway we've talking about for me is someone who's interested in writing a lot of let's call it production music or music. Your whole goal is to just build up a big catalog and get it out to as many different places as you can. So, you know, the, the royalties can start rolling in and that whole tap dripping analogy, you can start flowing and building. Adam Gardiner: But then there's the, the other pathway is that of the already established artist. So someone. Someone like a Bobby ALU. His music just happens to be so perfect for TV and, you know, in the sync space, but he's already an established artist. So his route would look more like, Hey, I've already got all this amazing music and he would be looking for what we'll call a sync agent. Adam Gardiner: So there's also sync licensing agencies that they don't wanna own any of your music. They just wanna be able to pitch it on your behalf and then take a commission later. So they might take 20% or 30% of the licensing fees. And the, sometimes even the royalties, all the agreements are different. But that's another pathway. Adam Gardiner: And so I'm definitely over here at the moment, but I'm, I want to get that going and kind of building underneath me, but also I'm interested. Slowly pivoting into more of this artist space and then getting another catalog. That's just with sync agencies that I own everything, but the agent gets to pitch it and exploit it and take a commission later. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Fantastic. Yeah, that, that is so true. The big shout out to Bobby who also was on this podcast. So we keep on referring back to old episodes here, but Adam Gardiner: got a great podcast. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I, I really like what, what you say, because you know, what you basically put in front of us is that you, as a musician, you spread out your income. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's not just coming from only pub gigs or only playing, you know, the, the local cafe, every, every Thursday. Instead you get a little bit of income from many different interactions. And I guess diversifying is probably good thing. If things get a little bit bumpy, like, you know, what we saw with COVID where gigs suddenly disappeared. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Having more than one leg to stand on is probably a good thing. W wouldn't you agree? Adam Gardiner: Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Fantastic. Yeah. And, and the way I understand sync licensing, in most cases, you can actually do it in addition to the normal distribution pathways, I guess that's what you just described and what Bobby would do. Fantastic. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And yeah, well, I hope that one day, you know, a big fish, like, I don't know, burger king or so buys one of Bobby's songs and hands him a million and say here we'll play it on the super bowl. Adam Gardiner: yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that would be 5 million. I dunno. Adam Gardiner: yeah, the, you hear some, you hear some big figures go throwing out there, so yeah, it's not yeah, it's possible. He could do it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that's a bit like a bit, bit like a jackpot, isn't it? You can't plan on this, so it's, it's much better to just, you know, focus on spreading, opening up all the little tabs and get a bit of money regularly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So good. I I'm so glad that we brought up sync licensing because that's such an important aspect I believe of, of, you know, musicians life in. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But in order to, to produce the music, that must be really challenging. You said that you sometimes get a day or a weekend notice to produce a song. I know you as a drummer, but that means you need to be an entire band, an entire orchestra at times. So talk me through a typical production. Let's say. I'm a TV promoter. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I would like to now book a song from you for my TV show. And I give you a certain theme. It's gotta be happy. It's gotta be uplifting. And it needs to remind me of the seventies go. How, how would you start brainstorm for me? Adam Gardiner: awesome. Well, right off the bat seventies, I'm thinking I gotta nail the drum sound. I gotta nail the bass sound. Basically the mix has to sound like the seventies. I'm already thinking, how am I gonna record it? Yeah, I love this question. It's great. So for me, so let's talk about a seventies drum sound. Adam Gardiner: I got some ribbon mics already set up over here for me, ribbon mics, as overheads are very seventies sounding. You can jump in too. if correct me, if I'm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: No, no. Keep going, keep going. You're great. Adam Gardiner: I wanna muffle the snare drum with a cotton. I've got a, a special like cotton muffling ring thing that I made. Cuz that's a big part of the seventies drum sound. Adam Gardiner: And I would probably honestly I would record myself playing drums, but I would probably also use some samples. I'm a big fan of the native instruments. Do the Abbey road. There's like different decades. So I've just got that aro decades pack. So you can get like the fifties drummer, sixties, drummer, seventies, drummer and that sort of takes the drum sound I'm already trying to create and just kind of flavors it that little bit extra into the right decade. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: if I could just clarify. So you're using that to add to your, to your signals. Do you blend it in or do you actually replace the drums that you played with those samples? Adam Gardiner: Yeah, well, some, yeah, sometimes I would just mute my kick mic, my snare mic and just have the samples and the overheads, but normally I would do a blend. And in this case I would probably do a blend. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Adam Gardiner: yeah. And for those who don't realize, you can just, you can highlight your kick track and replace hit, like replace with MIDI and it'll bring up little mid notes of every single kick that you. Adam Gardiner: That's what I'm using to then drive into the Abbey road, seventies, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: cool. Good. Yep. Adam Gardiner: And you know, you tweak all the, all the velocity and like all that kind of stuff you can get into the weeds. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That gives you a lot of control. That way you can literally play you know, a 16 inch kick drum. If you want to today on 18 inch tomorrow, or, you know, a really deep 24 inch the day after tomorrow. So you don't actually need to own all of those drum sets. You can play your drum set and it still sounds like different kids. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Got it. That is a smart workflow. Adam Gardiner: And they, they sound great. Like it , I'm just amazed at some of the tools we have these days that are just available to you. Yeah, so that's a really valuable tool for me. I know somewhere on where it depends when I'm recording for other people. I don't. Like they wanna do the sampling themselves. Adam Gardiner: So I don't do any samples in that case, but if I'm, yeah, if I'm making a track myself, I'm definitely gonna put some samples in there. And then the seventies base sound, I would probably call a bass player friend and say, yo, gimme a PB bass with some flat wound strings that I can use. Cuz that's so seventies, I don't have one of those, but. Adam Gardiner: Yeah, I would just, I would get some reference tracks straight away and try to nail some sort of base part do the best I can. But anyway, is this, is this helping at all? You just gotta, yes. You gotta be the one man band and you gotta do it all yourself. Mix it all yourself, master it all yourself and Jan 'Yarn' Muths: all in one Adam Gardiner: send it off all in one weekend. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And can you describe. Can, can you describe the studio that you work from? You know, that sounds like you must have, you know, a million dollar facility with several rooms and probably three staff engineers and a tech guy. And you know, Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: is that what it is? Adam Gardiner: that what it sounds like? No, no, I do not have any of those things. So I I've got a I'm in like a, what is this like, I guess a rumpus room sort of situation, a downstairs rumpus room of a house? It's no, no, it's not ideal by any means. I've got some acoustic foam up. I'm doing the best I can. Adam Gardiner: And I use, I talked a bit be about ribbon mics just before, and that's intentional cuz this room isn't ideal. It doesn't sound like a really lovely, nice studio. And I feel like if I was to use condenser mics, which are really, really high definition, really detailed. Sure you would hear the drums in great detail, but you would also hear the, the bad reflections and the dodginess of this room in greater detail, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's true. Yeah. Adam Gardiner: I wanna steer away from. Adam Gardiner: So for me on the drums, the ribbon mics as overheads are the perfect choice, cuz it's, I mean, if you, if we're talking about like HD photo and then a SD photo, , it's more like the, the SD photo and you get all the warmth and the vibe and the character. But you don't have as much finer detail. So it's a bit of a compromise. Adam Gardiner: But it works for me. I'm a big fan of when you are tracking the drums, having all the mics quite loudly in your headphones. So you can hear what, you know, what the mics are actually doing, what they're listening to. And I think the biggest thing is just adjusting the way you play. The it's all about trying to capture a good recording. And in this room that's different to just rocking out live. I've gotta play a lot softer. There's a lot more muffling and yep. A lot. It's basically just changing the way I play and being sensitive to what the mics are actually capturing in this room. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So you're doing all of this out of your home studio. Adam Gardiner: It's a home studio. Yeah. barely a studio. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Anything, but a million dollar facility and you still pull, pull that off all by yourself. You play the drums, you record yourself. You collaborate on some instruments, like bass, you said? Adam Gardiner: More like borrow gear but yeah, sometimes yeah, sometimes if a mate's over. You know, plays a different instrument. I'll be like, ah, jump on this track for me real quick. But yeah, usually it's just, I'm the one man band doing it all myself. Which again, it's not ideal. if I had more time and like more budget to make a nice recording, I would definitely hire other musicians to do some of the other stuff. Adam Gardiner: Absolutely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. And Adam Gardiner: make the records and actors make the TV shows. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yeah. What about guitars? Keys, vocals synthesizers. Are you doing all of that? Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. I mean, so for me, guitar would be a close second instrument on the drums. I picked that up when I was a teenager as well. My dad's, my dad's a guitarist musical guy and got me started showed me all the foundational things. And I guess. Studying at uni, doing music at uni as well was really helpful. Adam Gardiner: Just hanging out with other musicians. And you're just always talking about like guitar tone and guitar pedals and like chord voicings. And you're kind of in that world and you just kind of soak it all up and take the bits you like, and yeah. So you just find a way to do it yourself. I'm also. So I should mention I'm sort of half a musician composer, half a high school teacher today. Adam Gardiner: I literally taught high school. taught like maths and English and random subjects, but being a, in the music classroom as the music teacher, you just have to jump around. With the kids, you gotta play all the instruments. Often you are singing cuz the kids are too shy to sing. that kind of thing. So I've been doing that for about 10 years. Adam Gardiner: So that's really just part of my journey as well, as silly as it sounds, you just, you gotta learn to like, oh okay. That kid's not here. The bass, player's not here today. I'm jumping on base. Let's do it. Like you just gotta figure out how to do it. Yeah. And it's fun. I love it. It's It's kind of fun, discovering new parts and new things on other instruments that really lights me up too. Adam Gardiner: So I love that about doing what I do. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: What a great combination of, you know, between teaching and teaching kids to, to play instruments and then, you know, also making music and selling it. That's fantastic. You're living the life here. living the dream. Adam Gardiner: Oh, thanks. Have you done much high school teaching? I don't know. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I have not, no I have a background in education as well, but not high school. So that would be very, yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Much challenging, I guess. You know? Tell me about your drum set. What kit do you like to play? I can see something under a blanket there in the background, Adam Gardiner: Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But I can't identify what it is. Adam Gardiner: So this is that same drum kit. I mentioned before when I was a kid jumping out my window onto the, onto the drums. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: No way. That's. That is the same kid. Adam Gardiner: that's it. Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Adam Gardiner: So for those that know drums, this is like an early nineties, Pearl. And it's the Taiwanese version. So there were a bunch of cheaper Chinese ones that were everywhere, but the Taiwanese ones were just built a bit differently. Adam Gardiner: And they were everywhere in the, in the early nineties. Like when I was a kid, this drum kit was like in all the, in all the music videos on like rage and TV hits and stuff. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. And then somewhere in the early 2000. I feel like all the drum kits got sparkly, they brought out all these sparkly ones. Adam Gardiner: And then this old, this old bucket of bolts got forgotten about. But it's, it's like a workhorse. It's such a good kit. And I, I have had another kit that I don't own anymore, but I have played like smaller fusion sizes more punchy stuff. But I ended up just selling it. I wasn't really, I didn't feel like I needed it Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah, Adam Gardiner: the time. Adam Gardiner: So I, I literally just have this one drum kit and I just use it for everything. And yeah, I guess the cheat is the drum samples we were talking about before to kind of flavor it in different ways. But even playing live, this is the drum kit. If you've ever heard me play drums at any point on any recording over the last, however many years, this is it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: this is it. Look In, in your defense here. I, I know people who play these really expensive Lud wake or DW kids that, you know, just sound phenomenal and they still use samples. So it's actually quite interesting to see that, you know, I don't want to talk down on your kid it's but it's more of a, not, not a top end, but a medium segment drum set is Adam Gardiner: you're right. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Don't wanna offend you in any way, but, Adam Gardiner: No, that's not offensive. That's what it is. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Amazed that you take, you know, this drum set and you're so successful with it. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So that, that tells me a lot about, you know, how, how you pull your sound. It's it's obviously not the instrument. It's you pulling this sound? Let let's talk about this some more. Let's open another can of worms, Adam Gardiner: Yep. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: This is a question this can lead to fist fights, drum tuning, or eing, which one? Adam Gardiner: okay. Drum tuning. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's a big can of worms. Adam Gardiner: that is a big category's drum tuning slash like muffling and maybe changing what sticks you're using. I would try all those things before. EQing definitely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. Adam Gardiner: What are you? What can for you in I'm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, look, I'm, I'm completely on your side, but I have worked with musicians in the past and I will sure not name them that literally said, nah, can, can't be bothered to tune my, my kid I'm hiring you. They cue the heck out of it for me, make it sound like, you know, million dollar kid for me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's why I have you for, and I was like, okay. You can do it to some degree. I reckon you, you, you can do it to some degree, but so you are on the side that you prefer fixing it at the source, basically looking at the heads, you know, tuning them, making a bit tighter, a bit looser. You know, the, I find that the balance between, you know, the tension between the, the beat hat and the resonant had, has a lot to do with the way that Tom sing in a way, you know, the, the sustain, the ring of. Adam Gardiner: Yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And you know, that's just not something that I've found I can do with, with, with an equalizer. Adam Gardiner: Yeah, absolutely. that's crazy. The yeah, I can't believe that. Wow. I should mention it just popped into my head while I play this same drum kit everywhere. I've got a few different snare drums and sets of symbols and stuff that I swap around. Right, right now there's like a. We're talking about seventies. Adam Gardiner: I got a seventies Ludwig, super phonic for anyone who's a drum nerd can can Jan 'Yarn' Muths: one. I have one as well. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Great. Yes, isn't it. Isn't it like the most recorded snare drum or maybe that's the black Jan 'Yarn' Muths: it might be, yeah. Isn't that the the SNA that cotton Barrett from, from the Les played, Adam Gardiner: yep, definitely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Really nice snare. Adam Gardiner: Ringo had one. Right. And then John Bonham has like the deeper version of it, like the 6.5 deep. Yeah, there's a few classic, like, oh, so and so had it but I love it. Yeah. The second I got that and hit it, I was like, that's amazing. I'm keeping this forever. and I have, I also have a deeper, a 6.5 brass snare that I really like. And what else? Oh, I've got. A Ludwig acro light as well, which is a, that aluminium shell one, which you've probably seen a lot. Which I like those are the three go-tos at the moment. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: lovely. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Look, I wanna steer back to, to tuning if that's okay. You know when it comes to tuning a bass or a guitar, that's a pretty straightforward procedure. And of course, every guitar player knows how to do it, but when it comes to tuning drums I hear a lot of different stories of. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: How people do it. What's your recipe? How do you what's on your mind? How do you walk us through the process of taking a Tom? That's not really sitting right. Tonally and, and tuning it. Where do you start? What do you focus on? Adam Gardiner: Tom. Yeah. Okay. I think the biggest, the biggest factor in drum sound is often the space you're playing in as in. I can tune up this drum in this room and make it sound really great. Then I'll take it to a gig somewhere and it'll sound a bit whack and like, not the same, basically. Particularly the lower frequency sounds like the kicks and the floor Toms. Adam Gardiner: I feel the game has changed when you take it into a different space. And so tuning sometimes, I mean, yes, I'll try to, you talked about the tension, but like, The relationship between the top head and the bottom head on the Toms. That's a big, a big part of the game. And I think for me, the idea is if they're both the same sort of tension, you'll get the longest resonance or like the longest ringing sound. Adam Gardiner: And it just depends how much it's ringing in the room and how much you want it to ring for what type of music you're playing. You might want it to ring really. In certain styles of music and you might want it to be really short and punchy in other styles of music. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Okay. So what would you do if you wanted to, to sound shorter? Adam Gardiner: shorter. Well, for me, I don't know if it's, cuz I'm a bit lazy or not, but instead of like trying to, if it's the tone of the drum is sounding good, but it's ringing longer, I would go to muffling. Adam Gardiner: So I would put what's it called? The there's those leather ones. Snare weight. I've got a few of those. Those are really nice. Or just moon gel or gaff tape. Or like I've got different cuts of cotton that I just tape on sometimes. Or just, you cut different shapes out of old drum skins. Don't Chuck out your old snare head cut like a ring with, just get a Stanley knife and cut a little ring out of it. Adam Gardiner: Make thin ones, make thick ones. Semi circle ones. all different Jan 'Yarn' Muths: a really smart idea. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. So you can just whack it on and go, oh, is that sounding better? No, like, and it, yeah, it's gonna be a different, one of those works in different room. It's the room. Really? That's the thing you gotta figure out. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Course there's the, the choice of heads, Adam Gardiner: yep. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: is you know, that's a huge effect on the sound. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Yep. Definitely. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: so do you go for coat at hands on, on the Toms for a 70 sound or do you, what's your Adam Gardiner: I would do. I would do coded. Yep, definitely. And probably Remo coded emperors on the Toms Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I love those. Adam Gardiner: coded ambassador on the snare. Sounds very seventies to me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's right on my alley. Adam Gardiner: yeah. That's it's classic. Yeah, I mean Evan's Jan 'Yarn' Muths: but you know, aquariums have grown on me a little bit, but Evans have never grown on me for whatever reason. I know other people love them, but Evans, they don't sound good to my set of ears. I guess Adam Gardiner: I must say I, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: preference. Adam Gardiner: yeah, I, I was the same for many, many years. And then I've tried. Evan's wait, let me just look to see what's actually called. Ah, so they've got UV is kind of like their latest sort of line of heads. So the UV one is kind of like a coded ambassador and then the UV two is kind of like a coded emperor and they're great. Adam Gardiner: I've got 'em on right now. Yeah, you should try. 'em they're very similar, but I know just. A tiny bit, tiny bit different in a way I can't describe, but I really liked. And sometimes it's about the feeling of hitting it with a stick in your head. If it feels, it just feels good using these heads at the moment. Adam Gardiner: And if you feel good, you're gonna play better. So that's part of it too. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That's right. The way the stick rebalance of, of the skin. Has a big effect on, on how you play. I find, and you know, so sometimes I just go for tighter sound on the Peterhead just for that rebound and just chewing it back down with the Rezo hand for the fullness. Yeah. Cool. Nice, nice, nice. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Let's talk about microphones on your drum kit. So you spoke about the ribbon microphone that I can actually see in the background there that looks like Just trying to guess what that is. It looks like one of those stereo ribbon mics where there's two capsules. Can, can you drop a name here? What Adam Gardiner: Yeah. So you bang on it's it's the nude stereo ribbon mic, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I've had my eye on one of those. Can you recommend it? I'm actually in the market for, for a stereo ribbon. So please convince me. Adam Gardiner: I mean, I, I haven't played many ribbon mics to be honest. So I don't know if my , my advice is good, but I, I like it. I like it a lot. My only grip is. It doesn't have like a logo or like something you can line up. Like it's easy to get it outta phase. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: or to aim it the wrong way. Yeah. Adam Gardiner: yeah, so I've, I've kind of figured it out and put a little mark on it now, so I can like nail it every time. Adam Gardiner: But that initial kind of getting it outta the box and trying to figure out like, which way does it go? Like where are the mics aiming? cause there's nothing to tell you. It's a bit hard to figure out. But once you figure that part out, it's great. It's yep. It's like smooth and warm and fat. I love it. It's great. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: lovely. And ribbon microphones are known to have a particularly low output, which usually means you need a pre amp with a lot of clean gain. Is that a problem for you? Adam Gardiner: it can be on the drums. It's not a problem cuz the drums are a Jan 'Yarn' Muths: drums are loud. Yeah. Adam Gardiner: But yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: big deal. Yeah. Adam Gardiner: I have tried to record like finger picking guitar and stuff like that with it. And it just didn't work because I don't have, I don't have preempts for it. I should get some cuz I would use it more. But I basically just do have it set there and use it on drums. Adam Gardiner: And when I do percussion and stuff, I just sit on the drum still and like do my tambourines and my shakers and stuff. Using that mic and the percussion is loud enough as well. But yeah, that's an, that's a, a good point. If you're gonna get one and you're wanting to record like some more delicate, softer things, you definitely will need some pre amps. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: we're just getting a visitor here. My daughter has just arrived. Skyla. Do you wanna say hello? Hey yo. Okay. Adam Gardiner: Hey, Scarlet. Nice to meet you. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Skylar. Can you just play with your brother outside? I need 10 more minutes here. Hug big hug. I need to go back to work. Skylar work for me. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Play with you in a few, but I need 10 more minutes. Okay. Thank you. Sorry that Adam Gardiner: Yeah, all good. That's gonna be me very soon. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Yeah. . I'm just wondering, you know, most of the time I try not to edit the podcast, but I might just cut this out or maybe I'll just leave a Smid of it and let's see how I go with that. Yeah. Look back to ribbon microphone. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: So I guess the key is to, you know, pair a ribbon microphone with a rather loud sound source and not a quiet. So, and SOS, otherwise you might just literally run out of level, but they're also active ribbon microphones today in that basically have amplifiers built into the body. And yeah, they work actually really well. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Like the road NTRs, I've used those many times and they heavy microphones, so they're difficult to place because they, the boom keeps on dripping all the time, but. Yeah, they actually really need for, for piano, even delicate and quiet signals. Adam Gardiner: Awesome. That sounds. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I love my ribbon microphones and yeah, look I, I put this on my short list. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I need to buy a ribbon microphone in the next couple of weeks. I hope so. Adam Gardiner: Well, it's really, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: on the list. Adam Gardiner: it's like, you're getting two at the same time, cuz it's two in that X and Y sort of configuration. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Exactly. So that gives you stereo sound, or if you just paint it down to the center, then you have a mono source that works equally well, so lovely. Yeah. That's a really nice, nice tour to have. What about the other drums? What kick microphones, snare and Tom microphones. Do you, do you like Adam Gardiner: So I just have the standard SM 57 on the snare, just the top. Cuz I only only have four inputs, so that's another thing I will eventually get more inputs and more mics. But yeah, I just have the 57 on the snare, the two overheads and then the kick I've got the sender E 9 0 6. Is that the right? I Jan 'Yarn' Muths: The 9 0 6. Yes. Yes. That's the dynamic one. Yes. Yeah, that's a, that's a lovely mic. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. That's that's literally all you do with four microphones. Well, I guess it makes sense because you know, you on. Fast turnover. You, you produce so fast, so you definitely don't want end up with, you know, 14 microphones to mix the water pain. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: But Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: and do you ever find that you struggle to get the Toms or the detail out of your HTS or? Adam Gardiner: I mean, yes, sometimes, but again, I feel like it's all about capturing the recording. So I'm all about like playing well, playing balanced. Like if the, if the hats aren't coming through, the beauty of me just being in my own studio. Is you can listen back and go, oh, I'll just do another take and I'll play the high hats a bit louder. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Oh, that's perfect. Adam Gardiner: yeah, mix it in that, mix it in a musical way instead of trying to fix it in the mix later with like, not, Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I, I love everything you just said. This is so right down my alley. Adam Gardiner: Great. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: that, that's where the magic is. That's where the magic is. It's not coming out of, you know, spending three days with equalizers in pro tools or logic or so, or, you know, using all the advanced isotope tools. That's not where it's at. It's it's all the performance look, Adam Gardiner: And some of my Jan 'Yarn' Muths: really right on my alley. Adam Gardiner: some of my favorite drum recordings are like Stevie wonder on the drums with like four mics. that's oh, that's magical to me. I love Jan 'Yarn' Muths: yes. Yeah. The Beatles. Yeah. Kick mics near Mike and ribbons on the overheads. That's all they tracked for mics. That's all, all it takes sometimes. Adam Gardiner: Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: One. Excellent. Adam Gardiner: I guess that when you were saying before, how I play all the instruments that's another thing, like I have the, you know, the comfort of my own space to like figure out how to do the base part. And if I didn't nail it, I can just delete that record a better take, that kind of thing. Adam Gardiner: That's really a. A big part of home recording. Well, just trying to capture good takes and minimal editing minimal. It'll be easier to mix later if you capture really good takes good recordings. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I, I couldn't agree more. That that is so true. You know, you don't wanna make yourself too much work in post when you track. Yeah. That's so frustrating. nail it in the first. Yeah. Cool. Nice one. You said you, you interface as four inputs. Can you, can you share which interface you're using? Adam Gardiner: Okay. Yeah. So it's actually two interfaces so I've got the focus, right. CLAT, which I'm talking through right now. And that's, I got the overheads going into that. And I should mention the CLAT. It has like a. An air setting that you can put on. And I, I love that on the drums. So I normally have the air setting going. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Can you ex explain what it does? Adam Gardiner: yeah, so it's just like a bit of a boost. I don't know exactly in the high, high frequencies. It's probably like 10 to 12 K has a bit of a couple of boost. And that's where you get kind of the, you do get a little bit more clarity. Crispy high frequencies which are nice for the symbols and yeah. Adam Gardiner: Just brings that little extra bit of air. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Especially since you're recording with a ribbon microphone, which can be just a touch shy on top end. So that that's a great combination. Yeah, I like that. Adam Gardiner: And then, so then the kick and snare are going into a focus, right? Scarlet, I think it's called a two I two. Just a two, two channel one and I. Plug them both in, and cuz I have a Mac laptop. You can run it as an aggregate device. Have I lost you or do you know what I'm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: No, no, no. Keep, keep going. Keep going. Adam Gardiner: yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's just that just allows you to use both of the interface at the same time. And you, so the claret is gonna be the one that's. I dunno how to explain this without it sounding confusing, but it's kind of like the boss one and the Scarlet is taking the lead of the yeah. The follower. Adam Gardiner: Yep. And that's it, it records really well. There's no latency. Like when I listen back all the, the stuff that's in the Scarlet is perfectly lined up with the stuff that's been recorded through the CLAT. So Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Well, Adam Gardiner: that works for me at the moment. I. Yeah. As I said before, there are many things that are not ideal that I'm doing right now, but I'm on the journey and I'm looking to grow and have more and more ideal things. Adam Gardiner: come into my studio. But yeah, that's how I do it at the moment with four mics. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Wow. Wow. That's, that's really amazing because I'm. Go smacked by just how much you make from so little because when you, you set the CLAT, my, you know, immediately I saw the picture in my mind of the big one, you know, the eight channel Preem one, which is, you know, 19 inch and so on. That's that's good enough to record a band, but you've got the little one then with two inputs and you just combine it with another interface to make it for. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And it all works for you. The aggregate device is something that I have tried before I have to say, and I gave up cause it. What I wanted, but I didn't use two focus. Right. Devices. I used, I think it was one avid inbox back in those days and something else. And it just wasn't stable for me. But so I always assumed that wouldn't be fit for production, but you proved me wrong here. Nice. Nice. And what is your, what is your D I w of choice? Adam Gardiner: I'm a logic user. Mainly Jan 'Yarn' Muths: my logic. Adam Gardiner: yeah, mainly cuz the garage band kind of sucked me in yeah. So I, yeah, like 10 years ago. I, yeah, if you get your first Mac laptop, cuz everyone was getting them and you're like, Hey, what's this garage band and then yeah, just fiddling around in garage band. You can, you can do a lot. Adam Gardiner: It's quite powerful. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It is. Adam Gardiner: at school, in the classroom we use it all the time. And it's awesome. It's great. And then eventually yeah, I decided to actually start making music more seriously and bought logic pretty much. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Sorry a short moment. Hey, listen up kids. No miles smiles on Scott. I really need you to play outside for five Jan 'Yarn' Muths: little monkeys. Sorry about this. I lost my train of Adam Gardiner: That's all good. It's all Jan 'Yarn' Muths: We were just talking how you progress. Yeah from garage band, and then you graduated into logic. Logic is so powerful and you know, the features they added recently, you know, they really give Ableton a run for their money, Adam Gardiner: Mm Jan 'Yarn' Muths: with the live looping stuff, that's really respectable of what they've done. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And I find that logic is, you know, considering what you get, it's very reasonably priced compared to other DWS. Adam Gardiner: Yeah, definitely. I mean, the laptop is more expensive. like you have to have a, a Mac which can be quite pricey, but yeah, it's the cheapest DW. If you happen to already have a Mac, it's a bit of a no brainer. Yeah, definitely. And at, you know, at, at uni we did we had to do some assignments on pro tools and I think we even used reason back in the day. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Mm-hmm. Adam Gardiner: So I've and I have used Ableton a little bit, so I've, you know, I've poked around in a few other Daws, but yeah, logic just seems to be more I don't know. I just picked it up quicker. It's more intuitive to me naturally, I think. Yeah. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Cool. It's a good fit for you, I guess, for your workflow as well, because you know, you always work so fast. Lovely. So Adam, look, if somebody wants to find out more where would the listeners have to go to, let's say, listen to your music, Adam Gardiner: Yep. Well Jan 'Yarn' Muths: in Spotify or apple music? Adam Gardiner: well, yeah, yeah, I'm on, I'm on all the streamings streaming platforms, just Adam Gardner G a R D I N E R. Or there's a website, Adam Gardner music.com. It's probably the best place to go. And I should mention there is some music coming out in October. So, you know, if you follow me on Spotify, that's really helpful. Adam Gardiner: You can find me on band camp. I mean, the best way to, to, to support independent musicians is actually to buy their music. So if you wanna find me on band camp and buy something, that would be great too. but yeah, the website, website's the best place to find all the. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I will put all of those links into the show notes. Of course. So at the end of the episode, please scroll down, click the button, and then you can find Adam straight away in. Adam Gardiner: Awesome. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Say if somebody is in need of a really good drummer, would you be available for session drumming? Could I just, you know, flick you my, my pilot guitar and vocal. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: And could you lay on some drums for me? Adam Gardiner: Definitely. Yep. I do that all the time. I can record drums and guitars remotely pretty well yet, and that's just, you can email me Adam garden of music, email.com. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Excellent. Adam Gardiner: and on my website, you can see there's a, a bit of a session drummer video up there. If you wanna see, see me in action, and it's got a, a bunch of different genres and styles and. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: That sounds fantastic. All of those links of course, will be in the show notes and look, Adam, once your releases out give me a little nudge and I'll post this on the production talk podcast Facebook community, so that all the listeners who subscribed. Get a reminder of that as well in October. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Adam Gardiner: Thank you so much. That'd be Jan 'Yarn' Muths: thank you so much for making the time. I wish you all the best for your young family and the adventurous ahead. It's gonna be amazing. Enjoy every second. Adam Gardiner: Thank you. I'm really looking forward to it. Thanks so much. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Thank you so much, Adam. This was an amazing episode and it's fantastic to have a bit of dramas chat. That was really, really amazing. So I really appreciate your time at the time of editing. I still had no baby news, but who knows? That might be different by the time this episode is out on Tuesday morning. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: It's a Nailbiter we are on standby and hoping for, for some good news very soon. In the meantime, I would like to recommend everybody to please scroll through the previous episodes. There were a couple that we refer to today. Especially if monetizing music is something that your music business would benefit from. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: I recommend to go back and check out the episodes in the show notes. In other news, exciting things are happening on my hand. I'm settling into the studio rooms and I've had heaps of visitors over the last week. And that is really great to see. So again, I'd like to extend last week's invitation to please. Jan 'Yarn' Muths: Yeah. Stop by and say hello. If you want to check all the new rooms. Yeah, that's all for today. I hope you had a great time. I will speak to you again and next week. Thank you very much. And bye for now.